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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Jul-13-13 | | torro: was about the same...18.Be7 |
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| Jul-13-13 | | morfishine: <al wazir> Yes, me too: 18.Nf6+ Bxf6 <19.Bxf6> <So why do GMs ever play the Pirc/Modern?> I think the general line of reasoning is the Pirc is somewhat more flexible than a straightforward KI, while the Modern defense is even more flexible (lots of transposition options)...accuracy is a must or Black will end up like this game |
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Jul-13-13
 | | FSR: <al wazir: ... So why do GMs ever play the Pirc/Modern?> It's a good opening to confuse lower-rated players with. For example, here's a nice smooth win by a GM over a 2200: J L Burden vs Christiansen, 1992. As to why a GM would play it against anyone of similar strength, I have no idea. |
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| Jul-13-13 | | gofer: The Nf6+ seems like its an attack, but really its a clearance move for
the real attack Bxg6!
<18 Nf6+ ...>
18 ... Kf7 19 Qxh7 Nxd3 20 Bh6 
18 ... Rxf6 19 exf6 Nxd3 20 Rxd3
<18 ... Bxf6>
<19 Bxg6! hxg6>
<20 Bxf6 ...>
White is threatening 21 Qh8+ Kf7 22 Qg7+/Qh7+ Ke8 23 Qe7# <20 ... Rxf6>
<21 exf6 ...>
White has open lines for both rooks and his queen, the black king is exposed
and the black defenses are all on the wrong side of the board. White can
play Qg5 to protect Pg2 and attack Pg6 and free up Nf3 at which point black
is really going to struggle...
~~~
Yep... |
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| Jul-13-13 | | Nick46: I got the first move, which is all I would ever try for towards the end of the week. |
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| Jul-13-13 | | erniecohen: Way too easy for Saturday; the attack order is pretty much forced (to use the LSB before it gets eliminated), and all of the move 22 alternatives (♕g5, ♖d8, and f7+ ) are winning. |
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| Jul-13-13 | | cyclon: Hmmh.., I'd suggest today 18. Nf6+ Bxf6 ( 18. -Rxf6 loses besides the exchange, to 19. exf6 B- 20. f7+ which is too much to handle for Black I'm afraid AND 18. -Kf7 gets 19. Be4 Ncd5 [ 19. -Nbd5 20. c4 and Black can't play -20. -Qxa4? because after 21. cxd5 threats 22. Bxg6+ and if BQueen moves, 22. dxe6+ with 23. Rd7+ are devastating ] 20. c4 and if now for example -20. -Qc7 White exchanges in d5 and plays e6+ followed by Bf4 and then the threats are Ne5+ with Rd7+ . Some other lines may also include. Without here going into the mass of lines it's quite fair to say that White has a material plus and an attack going on in the 18. -Kf7 variation ) : and HERE ( after 18. Nf6+ Bxf6 ) I'd suggest 19. Bxg6 hxg6 ( what else? - 19. -Rf7 20. Bxf7+ Kf8 / -Kxf7 21. Qxh7/+ mates ) 20. Bxf6 Rxf6 ( necessary 'cause mate with 21. Qh8+ Kf7 21. Qg7+ Ke8 22. Qe7X was threatened. 20. -Ne8? 21. Qh8+ Kf7 Ng5X and 20. -Nbd5? / -Ncd5? allows 21. Ng5 for White mating Black because Knight on -d5 BLOCKS Black Queen from mating White from g2 ) 21. exf6 ( in my view better than 21. Qxf6 ); and this is the culmination position with White's play and the winning one for him
in my view.
Black cannot play 21. -Qe4 22. Qh6 Ne8 23. f7+ wins outright.
Neither works 21. -Ne8 straight on account of 22. f7+ Kg7 ( 22. -Kf8 [ 22. -Kxf7 23. Ne5+ ] 23. Qh6+ followed either -Kxf7 24. Ne5+ winning the Queen, or 23. -Kf8 24. Qh6+ Ke7 25. f8Q+ wins ) 23. Qh6+ Kxh6 ( 23. -Kxf7 24. Ne5+ mates ) 24. f8Q+ Kh5 [ 25. -Kh7 26. Ng5X ] 25. Qh8+ Kg4 26. Ne5+ Kg5 27. h4X - "...pawn is the 'soul' of Chess..." - Philidor, still applies ). 21. -Qe8 gets 22. Qh6 Qf8 23. Qxg6+ Kh8 24. Ng5 wins. 21. -Nbd5 / -Ncd5 simply 22. Ne5 is enough to win for White.
So, if I'm not badly mistaken - how about cufflinks for White? |
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| Jul-13-13 | | James D Flynn: Material is equal and both sides are fully developed with pressure against the opponents K-side.
18.Nf6+ Bxf6 19.Bxg6 hxg6 20.Bxf6(threat 21.Qh8+ Kf7 22.Qh7+ Ke8 23.Qe7#) Rxf6 21.exf6 Rf8(not Ke8 22.Qh8+ Ke7 23.Qg7+ Ke8 24.Qe7#)22.Qh6 Rf7 23.Qxg6+ Kf8 24.Ne5 Qxg2+ 25.Qxg2 Bxg2 26.Kxg2 (and White has a 2Rs, N, and 5 pawns versus Black’s R, 2Ns and 4 pawns) Rh7(not Rf8 27.Rd7 N7d5 28.Rg7+ Kh8 29.Ng6#) 27.Rd8+ Nf1 28.f7+ Kg7 29. Rxf8 Kxf8 30.Ng6+ Kg7 31.f8=Q+ Kxg6 and White’s material advantage is overwhelming. |
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| Jul-13-13 | | cyclon: In the final game position ( after 21. -Rf8 [ ingenious try ] 22. Qg5 ) 22. -Kh7 ( 22. -Qe8 23. Ne5 and the threats 24. f7+ or 24. Rd7 are impossible to meet. 22. -Qe4 23. Qh6 Ne8 24.Rd7 Rf7 [ 24. -g5 25. Rg7+ ] 25. Rxf7 Kxf7 26. Ng5+ mates ) 23. Ne5 Qxg2+ ( the only move ) 24. Qxg2 Bxg2 White has the INTERMEDIATE 25. Rd7+ letting the Rook in with devastating effect. |
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| Jul-13-13 | | wingpawn: Well, this is one complicated middlegame position... 18. ♘f6+ Black has hardly a choice but to remove this Knight because 19. ♕xh7# is threatened and If 18...♔f7? 19. ♘xh7 both attacking the Rook and thretening 20. ♘d4+ - White wins an exchange and a pawn while still attacking. So 18. ♘f6+ ♗xf6 19. ♗xf6. 20. ♕h6, 20. ♘g5 and 20. ♗xg6 are all in the air, hoping to create mating squares either on g7, h7 or h8. Now Black can try 19...♘e8 but after something like 20. ♗b5 ♕c8 21. ♖d8 ♕c7 22. ♖d7 it's either mate or Queen falls from the hands of Rook. 19...♖f7 20. ♗xg6 loses outright so as 19...♕d7 20. ♗xg6 and there are no other ways to cover Black's 7th rank. By the way, I took about 10 minutes on an idea to recapture with pawn: 19. exf6 centered around clever threats of 20. f7+ ♔h8 21. ♕f6# or 20. f7+ ♔xf7 21. ♘d4+ winning the Queen or 20. f7+ ♔g7 21. ♘d4 ♕xa4 22. ♕f6+ ♔h6 23. ♖f4 mating in the next move. So I thought that Ivanchuk has to either lose the Rook for a pawn and a game soon or to lose something on f7-square. He can't go 19...♔f7 20. ♕xh7+ ♔e8 21. ♗xg6+ crushing, so it leaves 19...♖f7, but here, White suddenly cannot push the Rook away because 20. ♘g5?? ♕xg2#. What a boner killer to a exciting variation. TIme spent: about 20 minutes. Checking this right NOW. Oh, so he sacrifices on g6 BEFORE recapturing the Knight? That's crazy. I hardly ever looked at the possibility of 18. ♘f6+ ♗xf6 19. ♗xf6 ♘xd3 which might hold Black's defenses... or not? Clearly, I'm not a GM-level player. Though it would be good to know how much time Karjakin took to actually figure all those variations out. |
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| Jul-13-13 | | kevin86: White sacs and exchanges most of his attacking pieces and is left with queen and pawn. But even that was too bad for black-with his defenders away (on leave) |
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Jul-13-13
 | | chrisowen: I factual line a risky opening starts to go awry in, (belt up queen side a4) feel benoni good fenced one, freedom bid in a tour eminate capitail queen on e1 go and hide away in lighth4as 9...b6 i shop re b7 us top it off in the sequence go ok bine d6 black, in knight neaded b4 low in e6 ok aka 11.dxe6 fxe6,
12.e5 nfd5 13.ne4 dynamo re d6 tombed instead a gib 13...nb4 aorta d3 when finesses right a6 you have, compensation in the shape of light squares awkward us turgid hive a jet 13...dxe5 at flew tko over done fallows c1 ground to invade rearguard it is. |
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| Jul-13-13 | | whiteshark: In the aftermath it looks so easy. |
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| Jul-13-13 | | agb2002: The material is identical.
Black threatens 18... Nxd3, eliminating an attacker and blocking the d-file (19.Rxd3 Qxe4). The first idea that comes to mind is 18.Nf6+ starting the attack against the black king: A) 18... Kh8 19.Qxh7#.
B) 18... Kf7 19.Bxg6+
B.1) 19... Ke7 20.Ng8#.
B.2) 19... hxg6 20.Rd7+ Qxd7 21.Nxd7 + - [Q+P vs R+B]. B.3) 19... Kxg6 20.Qh5+ Kf5 21.Qxh7#.
C) 18... Bxf6 19.Bxg6 hxg6 20.Bxf6
C.1) 20... Ne8 21.Qh8+ Kg7 22.Ng5#.
C.2) 20... Kf7 21.Qh7+ Ke8 22.Qe7#.
C.3) 20... Rxf6 21.Qxf6
C.3.a) 21... Qe8 22.Ng5 (menacing Nf7) 22... Qf8 23.Qxg6+ Qg7 24.Qxg7+ Kxg7 25.Rd7+ Kg6 26.Rxc7 wins material. C.3.b) 21... Ng8 22.Qxg6+ Ng7 23.Rd7 Qxd7 24.Ng5 + -. D) 18... Rxf6 19.Bxf6 Nxd3 20.cxd3 and Black doesn't have compensation for the exchange. |
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| Jul-13-13 | | agb2002: I missed 24... Qd4+ 25.Kh1 Bxg2+ 26.Kxg2 Qg4+ 27.Kh1 Qh5 - + in my line C.3.b. It seems that 21.exf6 is much stronger than 21.Qxf6. |
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| Jul-13-13 | | geniokov: The puzzle seems "very dificult" for Black to defend rather than for White to execute a plan to attack! There's not enough thing that will ask the attacker about "What if..?" Everything is favorable for White! |
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| Jul-13-13 | | morfishine: <FSR> All things considered, that was a fascinating game J L Burden vs Christiansen, 1992 I don't know if I'd call it "smooth", but its a good example of the difference between a ~2600 & 2200 rated player In any case, unique :) |
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| Jul-13-13 | | geniokov: Actually, the puzzle itself is not very dificult! Even a novice or amateur player like me will think about the first thing to do is to give a "check" at the Black king! What is difficult is to conduct a right sequence of variation that will convert into winning position. This is what we call "position that need resolvable solution by cluster of variation and not intuition. |
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Jul-13-13
| | FSR: <morfishine> The "smooth" was very much tongue-in-cheek. Burden would doubtless have won that game very easily if he'd stopped to think. What happened is that Christiansen, after losing his queen, started playing his moves very quickly, hoping to induce Burden to do the same. Burden foolishly accepted the bait, and discovered that Christiansen is an extraordinary blitz player, obviously far better at it than Burden. |
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| Jul-13-13 | | csmath: This is one of those games that is strikingly pointing out one important fact about Ivanchuk - he plays variety of openings that HE HIMSELF DOES NOT KNOW. This is clearly misplayed opening into a sideline that is obviously bad for black and Ivanchuk apparently did not study it enough to play it well. |
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| Jul-14-13 | | Abdel Irada: < FSR: <al wazir: ... So why do GMs ever play the Pirc/Modern?> It's a good opening to confuse lower-rated players with.> Indeed.
For example, it once worked well for me against that notable fish, Renard Anderson. (From his perspective: A Cacophony in Weak Dark Squares.) ∞ |
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| Jul-14-13 | | Abdel Irada: <morfishine: <al wazir> Yes, me too: 18.Nf6+ Bxf6 <19.Bxf6> <So why do GMs ever play the Pirc/Modern?> I think the general line of reasoning is the Pirc is somewhat more flexible than a straightforward KI,> Note that the KID and the Pirc/Modern are different openings. Quite often, in the latter, c2-c4 is never played, a small fact from which many consequences flow. ∞ |
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| Jul-14-13 | | DcGentle: Engines have got problems to find the fastest line to checkmate, because restricting the king and his defenders is a positional process, often intermixed with tactics. So after <22. Qg5> the answer <22... Qe8> is the best according to my research. White can announce a mate in 14: <23. Ne5 Be4 24. Qh6 Rxf6 25. Rxf6 Nbd5 26. Nd7 Nxf6 27. Nxf6+ Kf7 28. Nxe4 Qe7 29. Qh7+ Ke8 30. Qxg6+ Qf7 31. Nd6+ Kd7 32. Qxf7+ Kc6 33. Nb5 Nd5 34. c4 a6 35. cxd5+ exd5 36. Qxd5#> If someone finds a shorter mate line, please tell me. User: dcgentle |
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| Jul-14-13 | | morfishine: <Abdel Irada> Please, I'm aware of the differences in these openings. The point I was trying to make, which escaped you, are the similarities in the openings, namely Nf6, g6, & Bg7 (focusing on the Black side). Re-read my post, and see if you can tell what I was driving at...nah, I'll spare you the time. The differences, again from the Black side, are primarily in move order; of which, the Modern is the most flexible, which means one can more easily transpose [ie: its less committal than a straight forward KI] Got it? |
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| Jul-14-13 | | Abdel Irada: <morfishine>: And the point *I* was making is that both players can be more or less committal. Black's moves do not exist in a vacuum, and there are important positional differences between the King's Indian, where c4 is played, and the Pirc/Modern, where it is not. It is my opinion that the prospects for Black in the KID are somewhat better because c4 tends to create a more rigid center and shift White's center of gravity toward the queenside. Against the Pirc/Modern, White can adopt more fluid formations and has a wider choice of attacking plans. ∞ |
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Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 19.Bxg6