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Tan Zhongyi vs Viktorija Cmilyte
Shenzhen Women's Grand Prix (2011), Shenzhen CHN, rd 10, Sep-18
Dutch Defense: Leningrad. Warsaw Variation (A88)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Aug-15-12  wildrookie: Hey! Where, the hell, have all the games gone? Anybody knows? Why can I view comments only but no games? Has chessgames.com recently introduced some additional fees for viewing games from the database or is the problem due to java incompatibility or something like that. Sorry for writing about technical issues and not strictly about chess but I am at a loss here and would kindly like to ask for help. Thanks.
Aug-15-12  ruzon: I haven't seen this line yet:

40. <Rg8+> Kh7 41. Qd3+ Re4 42. <R2g7+> Qxg7 43. Rxg7+ Kxg7 44. Qxe4 and now Rxc7 falls to Qe5+, so the rook is lost after 45. Qb7.

Aug-15-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  SuperPatzer77: White to play and win - see diagram


click for larger view

40. ♕g8+! (leads to a quick mate) ♖xg8 ▢, 41. ♖xg8+ ♔h7, 42. ♖h8+! ♔xh8 ▢, 43. c8=♕+ mates in two moves

In my opinion, 40. ♕g8+! is much better than 40. ♖g8+ because it leads to a quick mate. 40. ♖g8+ leads to giving White the one-queen advantage.

SuperPatzer77

Aug-15-12  njchess: When I first looked at this problem, I looked at 40. Rg8+. After some analysis, I came to the conclusion that White had the better position, but the issue was far from settled.

So, with the pawn on 7th rank, I explored the queen sac, fairly confident that I would get my queen back. That was when I hit on the game line. 42. Rh8 isn't obvious since it goes against many people's sensibilities to just give away a rook for a tempo, but it does fall under the maxim of "always look at check, because it might lead to mate".

Aug-15-12  Coigach: Several kibbitzers comment how easy this puzzle is for a Wednesday, but it took me a long time, and I didn't solve it completely in the end.

I looked for ages at 40.Rg8+ thinking it must win, perhaps seduced by how easily it does after 40...Rxg8? 41.Qxg8#. Eventually I concluded B has a perpetual after 40...Kh7 41.Rxc8? Rxh3+ 42.Kg1 Rh1+! but missed that W still has a win after 41.Qd3+ Re4 42.Rxc8, only seeing 42.Qxe4? and W can't mate with the Rg2 as it is pinned.

So I then found 40.Qg8+ Rxg8 41.Rxg8 Kh7 42.c8Q and was satisfied this is a clear win, until checking the game revealed I han't noticed the immediate kill 42.Rh8+.

Aug-15-12  QueenMe: Once again I find statistics pointing to herd mentality. I did not get the mate via the knock-out 42) ♖h8+!, bit I *did* realize that 42) c8=♕ was necessary to avoid black being able to start a perpetual check sequence. The new queen at c8 protects the h3 pawn, and White is now up a rook, with his perpetual check threat busted. That should have been enough to effect a resignation in a real game.
Aug-15-12  QueenMe: Wait - there's more. Not only does my queen at c8 protect h3, it also threatens mate 2 different ways: ♕f5 and ♖h8. Black cannot defend both mating threats in one move (well, wait: thre's 43... ♕f6, to which white responds by 44) ♕d7+). Oh, BTW, whoops: in post just above this I meant to say that "... with his OPPONENT'S perpetual check threat busted". Sorry.
Aug-15-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  TheBish: Tan Zhongyi vs V Cmilyte, 2011

White to play (40.?) "Medium/Easy"

There is more than one way to win, e.g. 40. Rg8+ Kh7 41. Rxc8 is easy. But the idea here is to find the quickest win.

40. Qg8+! Rxg8 41. Rxg8+ Kh7 42. Rh8+!

This sets up a forced mate by promoting the pawn with check.

42...Kxh8 43. c8=Q+ Kh7 44. Qg8#.

Black could have delayed mate one move longer, but the bottom line remains the same.

Aug-15-12  fndmiranda: @LIFE MASTER AJ
Qg8 forces a quick mate and Rg8 doesn't. It's not fireworks, it's the best move: Qg8+
Aug-15-12  tivrfoa: Again I found a winning move, but not the best.
40. Rg8+ Kh7 41. Qd3+ Re4 42. Rxc8 ...
Aug-15-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Abdel Irada: <wildrookie>:

It does sound to me as though you're dealing with a Java issue. The chess viewer only works with current versions, and I don't have them on my browser either.

What I've done — which may work for you as well — is to download and install chess software (in my case, SigmaChess for Mac OS 9, which is free) and then configure it to automatically open .pgn files. This should enable you to view games simply by clicking the "download" link at the top of the page.

In any case, no, CG.com has not instituted a fee for viewing games. If it were ever to do so, I would expect that the site would first notify its users. However, I don't think such a shift is likely any time soon — and if such a thing did happen, I would be among the many users who'd simply stop coming here.

Aug-15-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Abdel Irada: <AJ>:

Choosing 40. ♕g8, which wins crisply and cogently, over the alternative 40. ♖g8 is not a matter of "fireworks"; it is the simplest and clearest path to victory. As a practical tournament player, I'd expect you to appreciate it as such.

Consider: If you set this puzzle as an exercise for your students, would you not expect them to find the most efficient win? And if they didn't, would you accept a dubious rationale for preferring a variation that wins more slowly or not at all?

As a teacher, you must uphold a higher standard than the average user, unless you want to risk teaching bad habits.

Aug-15-12  Patriot: <Abdel Irada> <If you set this puzzle as an exercise for your students, would you not expect them to find the most efficient win?> One of the first things my instructor taught me is "a win is a win". He also teaches that you want to find the best move (in a reasonable time). There's also a distinction between a line that wins a pawn or one that wins a piece. But if you think you can beat any GM with a winning line or find a mate in 5 when there is a mate in 3, don't worry about it. During a tournament, you won't get any extra points for a better win.

Today's position has many ways to win. I agree that 40.Qg8+ is best, which is what I decided. But my line varied, giving me a queen vs. rook ending. I stopped there because I'm positive I could beat anyone in the position after 40.Qg8+ Rxg8 41.Rxg8+ Kh7 42.R2g7+ Qxg7 43.Rxg7+ Kxg7 44.c8=Q:


click for larger view

Of course the game move, 42.Rh8+! is much better but seeing that my line wins is good enough for me to decide 40.Qg8+ should be played. You don't have to be completely accurate as long as the line isn't refuted. But hopefully after reaching the position on move 42, I would then see that 42.Rh8+ is best. But it's not necessary to calculate this from move 40. Also if you see that 40.Rg8+ is clearly winning, it's perfectly good to play it.

Aug-15-12  QueenMe: <Abdel Irada>: See my 2nd remark a few posts earlier. Note that in my case there is, in only a single additioanl move, a demonstrable FORCED WIN - moreover, one that a decent opponent would very likely see as well, effecting resignation on the same move. Getting a stunning mate in (n) moves, versus a less-than-stunning but obviously inevitable mate in (n+1) moves, I submit is pefectly OK. Note that I'm NOT championing the 40. ♖g8+ move as many others: I'm going with the Queen "sac", but then replacing the Queen, done quite deliberately (not just to gain the material) - but specifically to protect the pawn at h3, and prevent Black from commencing his perpetual check sequence, which was his final hurrah. No, it is not the slickest winning sequence, but it clearly breaks the opponent in the same number of moves.
Aug-15-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <LIFE Master AJ: My first instinct was to play 40.Rg8+. Black cannot take - due to the mate on g8. So 40...Kh7; 41.RxR/c8. Now Black is a Rook down, and only has cheap shots.>

41...Rxh3+ 42.Kg1 Rh1+! 1/2-1/2

Aug-15-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Abdel Irada: <QueenMe>:

I have to confess, I also chose the variation with 42. c8=♕, missing the fastest mating variation. My reasoning, as you will see in my original post, was similar to yours.

However: I was wrong. My line was inefficient, in that Black could delay mate with 42. ...♖xh3, as he signally cannot against the main line.

And although there are indeed several ways to win this, the puzzle asks us to find the *best* continuation, which my original line was not.

Still worse is <AJ>'s original variation, which actually allows Black to escape with a draw. While the interpolation 41. ♕d3 saves the win, it still makes heavy weather of what should be an immediate and ineluctable mating sequence.

From most players, I'd let this pass unremarked. It is only because <AJ> is a teacher that I hold him to a higher standard. And I imagine that, as a man of integrity, he would agree.

Aug-15-12  Patriot: <Abdel Irada> Why should he care about standards you are holding him to unless you are paying him? Sorry, just trying to understand why he should take you seriously on the 'higher standard' comment.
Aug-16-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: Hello <Patriot>! In answer to your comment/response to <Abdel Irada> when you asked <Why should he care about standards you are holding him to unless you are paying him? Sorry, just trying to understand why he should take you seriously on the 'higher standard' comment> I get the feeling here that what <Abdel Irada> is alluding to is there are two parallel threads here that are subject to 'standards': (1) skill & (2) character

Nobody's perfect. Even the very best players make silly mistakes from time to time. Thats why I don't think much of it when I see blunders by higher-rated players.

But that brings us to a crossroads: admitting one's mistakes and admitting there was something better all along and that for some reason, it eluded us this time.

We've seen it time and time again here (from more than one player) when one 'misses' instead of coming right out and saying 'Well, I missed this one', the player goes to great lengths to "prove" their line works too, etc. Not once do we hear "Gosh, I missed this one" or "My line is only good for a draw"

I may be way off base in trying to explain what <Abdel Irada> was trying to intimate. If so, I'll retract it and admit I was wrong :)

Aug-16-12  PaulLovric: i am using this game for an example at my school in china
Aug-16-12  LoveThatJoker: <Abdel Irada, Patriot, morfishine> Interesting conversation. I would say that the puzzle is about getting a winning solution on one's very first post (i.e., the Solution Post).

If you can prove in your very first post that there is a win/winning evaluation (by a decent margin) in the resulting position, it is fair to say that you have solved the puzzle correctly.

Sometimes there are alternate ways to win, and the daily puzzle is not exempted from this. It should be noted that the daily puzzle is not about finding the absolute best continuation (for that you can go to Chess Tactics Server), but once again, about finding a concrete win/winning evaluation (by a decent margin).

To give you an idea of what I mean, I have partaken in daily puzzles here on <CG> in which the victor played an objectively inferior, yet still winning continuation, and won. Just because I found a superior continuation, doesn't mean that my fellow kibitzer who went with the inferior winning game continatuion "missed it"; of course not, my fellow kibitzer can objectively truly claim to have solved the puzzle.

In the context of LMAJ's Solution Post for this puzzle for example, it could objectively be said that he "missed it", as he went for a line that allows Black to escape with perpetual check.

Had he in his solution post instead gone with 40. Rg8+ Kh7 41. Qd3+ then he would have been right in saying that he solved the puzzle - and no one could have taken that away from him.

LTJ

PS. I seriously would recommend to both you <morf> and <Abdel Irada> that you join up on Chess Tactics Server (chess.emrald.net). There it is about finding the best continuation in a timed environment.

If you do join, note that you will find that the rating system is a lot less visually rewarding than ELO.

Aug-16-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  SuperPatzer77: <TheBish: Tan Zhongyi vs V Cmilyte, 2011 White to play (40.?) "Medium/Easy"

There is more than one way to win, e.g. 40. Rg8+ Kh7 41. Rxc8 is easy...>

<TheBish> 41. ♖xc8 is a bad mistake because 41...♖xh3+, 42. ♔g1 ♖h1+!! leads to a draw by threefold repetition -

See diagram


click for larger view

43. ♔xh1 ♕h4+ see below:

a) 44. ♔g1 ♕e1+, 45. ♔h2 ♕h4+ (perpetual check) =

b) 44. ♖h2 ♕e1+, 45. ♔g2 ♕f2+, 46. ♔h3 ♕f5+, 47. ♔g3 ♕g5+, 48. ♔f3 ♕f5+, 49. ♔g2 ♕f2+ (again), 50. ♔h3 ♕f5+, 51. ♔h4 ♕g5+, 52. ♔h3 ♕f5+ (again) or 52. ♔g3 ♕g5+ (again) - a draw by repetition

So, it is 41. ♕d3+ is better than 41. ♖xc8??

<TheBish> You're right about 40. ♕g8+ leading to a quick mate.

SuperPatzer77

Aug-16-12  LIFE Master AJ: <Patriot> Thanks for the defense, although I doubt that the person you were speaking with even plays tournament chess. (Therefore - he would have no clue about practical applications, he may not even understand the concept.)

#1.) If you don't play tournament (OTB) chess, don't bother responding ... this was what my point was all about. As <Patriot> said, if you are running very low on time, and spot a sure win, you take it!

#2.) Only Garry Kasparov and Bobby Fischer played near perfect chess, I don't see much of that nowadays ... I go over dozens of games in TWIC every week. (RELIGIOUSLY!) Most, when I turn on any engine, are filled with possible improvements, few pass the test of "perfect, flawless chess." ('Nuff said.)

Aug-16-12  LIFE Master AJ: And as for admitting my mistake, that was obviously done when I posted my analysis.

http://www.ajschess.com/for_the-tro...

Aug-18-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Abdel Irada: <"I doubt that the person you were speaking with even plays tournament chess. (Therefore - he would have no clue about practical applications, he may not even understand the concept.)">

Without attempting to resume a flame war that does neither participant any credit, I will merely state that the quoted remarks are untrue.

Aug-19-12  Conrad93: SevenSeaMan, it's a win for white.
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