< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Jun-20-12|| ||King Death: Maybe one day they'll get bored with this and play a real draw: Hamppe vs Meitner, 1872.|
|Jun-20-12|| ||OBIT: Dang, I really wanted to put some chess bucks on this match-up...|
|Jun-20-12|| ||King Death: <OBIT> In poker that play would've had what we call a neutral expectation, the only thing is that you wouldn't have to pay off the bookmaker and his juice of 11:10.|
|Jun-20-12|| ||parmetd: At some point they won't both be invited to the same event.|
|Jun-20-12|| ||whiteshark: Today's my fav pairing Kosintseva vs Kosintseva - it's like mud wrestling - fun to watch... d'oh, an unexpected draw in only 14 moves...|
|Jun-20-12|| ||whiteshark: <Classical games: Nadezhda Kosintseva tied Tatiana Kosintseva 0 to 0, <with 9 draws.>>: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches...|
|Jun-20-12|| ||shivasuri4: <parmetd>, the problem here is that you can't block either of them from the Grand Prix cycle. We'll just have to accept it, and watch the other games.|
|Jun-20-12|| ||goodevans: Hey, girls, next time please could you find a different quick draw with which to entertain us. We've seen this one a few times now. Thanks.|
|Jun-20-12|| ||shivasuri4: <goodevans>, they might play 'The Immortal Draw'.|
|Jun-20-12|| ||King Death: Even this draw would be more interesting than the tired old Exchange Lopez, Nunn vs Speelman, 1980 as long as White doesn't try to get away: Chigorin vs H Caro, 1898|
|Jun-20-12|| ||wordfunph: <OBIT: Dang, I really wanted to put some chess bucks on this match-up...>|
$1,000 chessbucks to make $1 will be fine.
|Jun-20-12|| ||King Death: <whiteshark: Classical games: Nadezhda Kosintseva tied Tatiana Kosintseva 0 to 0, with 9 draws.>|
|Jun-20-12|| ||wordfunph: maybe striving for a Guinness world record +0-0=100 :(|
|Jun-21-12|| ||diceman: Fischer wouldnt give his sister a draw!|
|Jun-21-12|| ||SimonWebbsTiger: I do wish FIDE would sort out this farce.
Yes, we know you girls love each other but please play chess instead of this nonsense.
|Jun-21-12|| ||Eyal: This was a real thriller. I was wondering whether Black will go for 6 checks before the draw is agreed (as in T Kosintseva vs N Kosintseva, 2010), or maybe just 3 (as in T Kosintseva vs N Kosintseva, 2011), or perhaps 4 (as in N Kosintseva vs T Kosintseva, 2012), but in the end she surprised with 5. It's a pity, though, that they stopped playing as boldly as in that earlier draw from 2010 - there, the bishop went to f4 and even e5(!) while giving discovered checks, whereas in later games it limits itself to g3.|
|Jun-21-12|| ||King Death: <Eyal> If they were invited to an event with Sofia rules then there wouldn't be any problem, we'd have the same position 15 times or more. Lucky us, more room for creativity you know.|
|Jun-21-12|| ||Eyal: Heh - well, Sofia rules wouldn't really change anything here, since they don't legislate against perpetual check (or threefold repetition in general, I think)... They are mainly efficient in encouraging "hesitant" or "peaceful" players to play fuller games, not in cases where both players are determined to have a non-game.|
|Jun-21-12|| ||OBIT: The only part of this charade that I find annoying is the lack of creativity on the part of the Kosintseva sisters. I mean, they could at least surprise us with a different quick draw occasionally. For example, imagine the spectator buzz if they start their next game together with 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 ("Yes, they're playing a Najdorf!") 6. Be3 ("An English Attack, the main line!"). And, now, with the crowd going nuts, they can finish this little joke with 6...Ng4 7. Bc1 Nf6 8. Be3 Ng4 9. Bc1 Nf6. Ha, ha, we fooled you! |
As for forcing the sisters, or any other players for that matter, to play a real game, of course it can't be done. Without doubt, there have been many pre-arranged draws in tournaments that only the two conspirators know about. Worse yet, there have undoubtedly been players losing games intentionally to help their opponent win more prize money. Here's a fun scenario to ponder: Suppose one of the Kosintseva sisters was tied for first when this game was played, and, instead of the usual quickie draw, the sister won the game with a scintillating attack. You can be sure the fans would be screaming bloody murder that the game had been fixed.
|Jun-21-12|| ||Petrosianic: <The only part of this charade that I find annoying is the lack of creativity on the part of the Kosintseva sisters.>|
Very true. You know, Andy Soltis' Book of Chess Lists shows a pre-arranged draw from a Portuguese tournament, in which the players contrived to give up all their pieces, plus one pawn, then promote all their remaining pawns, so that they ended up on the opposite side of the board, on the starting squares. (Ex: White Ke8, Bf8, Ng8, Rh8, et cetera). They put a LOT of work into that game.
<As for forcing the sisters, or any other players for that matter, to play a real game, of course it can't be done.>
No, but they can, and possibly should be fined and/or banned for a few months. Either that, or the rules changed to allow pre-arranged draws openly. There is some logic behind the idea. If you can agree to a draw without even getting out of the book, how is agreeing to a draw before the game any different?
At the very least, they should just agree to a draw on Move 1, before White has made any move at all, just to avoid cluttering up the databases with faux games.
<Here's a fun scenario to ponder: Suppose one of the Kosintseva sisters was tied for first when this game was played, and, instead of the usual quickie draw, the sister won the game with a scintillating attack.>
To be sure, throwing a game is worse than refusing to play one. And with these particular players, yes, a decisive game would be extremely suspicious at this point. With two sisters who had no history of unethical behavior, there might be suspicions also. But suspicion is not the same as proof. In these cases, the proof is that they keep playing the exact same game. In your scenario there is no real proof.
|Jun-21-12|| ||King Death: < OBIT: The only part of this charade that I find annoying is the lack of creativity on the part of the Kosintseva sisters....>|
They definitely need more imagination, they could take lessons from Zurab Azmaiparashvili. Here's a game from an entire tournament that was fixed by him (Azmaiparashvili vs Kurajica, 1995) and here are the results: http://www.365chess.com/tournaments...
|Jun-22-12|| ||cro777: "I trust readers will be as inspired as I am, to see two young professionals so pushing the boundaries of scientific exploration in our game. This is where we are so superior in chess, of course - in other sports, the spoilsport officials would have the two admirable sisters arrested for match-fixing!" (Steve Giddins)|
<"Interestingly, the two Kosintseva sisters are both theoretical experts on this variation. They first encountered it three years ago, in their game at the World Cup Women's Rapid event, where Nadezhda made an extra winning attempt with 15.Kh1, but then agreed a draw after the reply 15...Be5+.
Eleven months later, they tested the variation again, at the Russian Womens' Championship. This time, Tatiana was White, and no doubt felt that confronting her fearsome opponent with her own favourite weapon would place her at a serious psychological disadvantage. However, after mobilising all her mental strength, Nadezhda also managed to draw after 15...Be5+.
At Hangzhou eight months later, Nadezhda tried her hand as White again, having prepared the crucial improvement of 15 'I offer a draw'.
At the Rostov-on-Don Women's Grand Prix event three weeks later, Tatiana showed the extent of their sibling rivalry, by trumping Nadezhda's improvement with a TN of her own - she offered the draw after 13...Bh2+.
And then, two months after that, she went one better again, taking the white side of the variation and unveiling the stunning further improvement, 13. Kh1, 'I offer a draw'.">
|Jun-22-12|| ||waustad: Judit and Susan Polgar drew all of their games for the first few years but then later had mostly decisive games. Maybe they'll finally do likewise.|
|Jun-27-12|| ||whiteshark: Here's my suggestion for their next 'encounter': D Andreikin vs N Vitiugov, 2012|
|Jul-02-12|| ||King Death: <whiteshark> I like that idea, here's another one from the Closed Ruy Lopez that will get them to move 40 if they play in some event with the Sofia Rules (yeah, right!): http://www.365chess.com/view_game.p...|
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