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Magnus Carlsen vs Peter Svidler
"White to Lose and Win" (game of the day Apr-20-2013)
World Championship Candidates (2013), London ENG, rd 14, Apr-01
Spanish Game: Closed. Martinez Variation (C78)  ·  0-1
ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 27 OF 27 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Apr-06-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: <Xenon Oxide> On your comment: <Well those principles are so self-evident, you don't need to know anything about chess to know them> Thats the point: To use chess to help persons who have not been instilled with such principles...
Apr-07-13  strobane: What about 39.Ne4 attacking the pawn on c5?
Apr-07-13  JENTA: I just posted a comment on the game Ivanchuk - Kramnik. Now it seems to me that Ivanchuk could win this game already on the 21. move with a paradoxical move

<21. Bc5-a7!>

(actually, he did a good move <21. Nd5>)

At least, Kramnik has no winning chances then, unless he sacrifices a piece without substantial attack. Interestingly, in the game Carlsen - Svidler as well there was a strange but very strong move with the bishop missed: <30. Bf6-h8!>

Apr-07-13  shivasuri4: <strobane>, 39...Be5, defending f6, would consolidate Black's position if 39.Ne4 were played. The fork on d4 prevents White from capturing the c5 pawn.
Apr-07-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eyal: <JENTA: I just posted a comment on the game Ivanchuk - Kramnik. Now it seems to me that Ivanchuk could win this game already on the 21. move with a paradoxical move 21. Bc5-a7!>

In fact this only leads to a draw after 21...Nxg2. However, it pretty much forces Black to force that draw in order not to lose, so from a practical viewpoint it could have benefited Carlsen since it would have clarified the situation in that game earlier. But Ivanchuk was playing for himself, not for Carlsen.

Apr-20-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  andrewjsacks: Game titled wittily! Very good again.
Apr-20-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  Check It Out: "White to lose and win" - I like it!
Apr-20-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: Nice pun to whoever thought this one up!

As far as the game goes, I thought it was interesting how both sides simultaneously brought pressure and defended the thematic attacks they were being subject to; Very entertaining and instructive

Apr-20-13  Conrad93: <May be Carlsen has to learn Yoga!? or what we call in Japan Zazen...>

The two are not related.

Apr-20-13  Abdel Irada: <Conrad93>: Whether that statement is true or not depends on whether you're thinking of yoga solely as a form of exercise, or also as a mental/spiritual discipline. In that form, it does have clear similarities and probable common historical origins with Zazen, a meditation practice of Zen Buddhism:

<Zen (the name of which derives from the Sanskrit "dhyaana" via the Chinese "ch'an"[note 15] is a form of Mahayana Buddhism. The Mahayana school of Buddhism is noted for its proximity with yoga.[157] In the west, Zen is often set alongside yoga; the two schools of meditation display obvious family resemblances.[158] This phenomenon merits special attention since yogic practices have some of their roots in the Zen Buddhist school.[note 16] Certain essential elements of yoga are important both for Buddhism in general and for Zen in particular.[159]>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga

Apr-20-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: I watched this game real time. I recall at the time that my engine, Deep Shredder 12, recommended 31.Bd5 and White is somewhat better, e.g.:

31.Bd5 Bxd5 32.Qxc5+

But the line is quite tricky and I don't recall what happens after 32...Kg7

Apr-20-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: <Everett: <JENTA: Kasparov in his book "Chess as a model of life" overestimates the importance of the chess game as modelling different kinds of situations of real life>

Of course he does. He would love to be considered the master of both life and chess. What a great way to stroke your own ego.>

The fact of Bobby Fischer existing kind of refutes the book, no?

Apr-20-13  tivrfoa: Very nice pun.
Apr-20-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eyal: <I watched this game real time. I recall at the time that my engine, Deep Shredder 12, recommended 31.Bd5 and White is somewhat better, e.g.: 31.Bd5 Bxd5 32.Qxc5+

But the line is quite tricky and I don't recall what happens after 32...Kg7>

Looks like it should be a draw with accurate play on both sides - I've analyzed this line a few posts ago.

Both 30.Bh8 (which was better than Bh4) & 31.Bd5 are very difficult to find and/or calculate and evaluate correctly in severe time trouble like the one Carlsen was in by this stage. In practical terms, the game started spinning out of his control with 26...Bf3! and the resulting tactical murkiness. He probably should have exchanged bishops on d5 first and only then played 27.Ng4, where White seems to enjoy a pleasant edge without much risk.

Apr-20-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: This game meets the paradox that :"neither player could save the game".
Apr-20-13  master of defence: Don't understood the pun. Can someone explain me?
Apr-20-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jim Bartle: "Don't understood the pun. Can someone explain me?"

Carlsen lost the game, but won the tournament.

Apr-20-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <thegoodanarchist> The FIDE site, http://london2013.fide.com/analysis..., evaluated the Houdini 2.0c continuation at d=22 at [+0.24] after 31.Bxd5 Bxd5 32.Qxc5+ Kg7 33.Qxd5 Kxh6 34.Qxf7 Ba5 35.Qxe8 Bxe1 36.Qxe5 Bxf2+ 37.Kxf2 Qxh2+ 38.Ke3 Qg1+ 39.Kd2 Qg2+ 40.Kd1 Qf3+


click for larger view

Yes, the continuation is tricky, particularly around moves 33-37. And if I remember correctly, Carlsen was getting short of time (unusual for him) so it's no surprise that he was not able to confidently calculate it.

From this position White can eventually escape the checks but seems to his b-pawn in the process. At d=25, Komodo 5 evaluates the line at [+0.52] after 41.Kd2 Qg2+ 42.Kc3 Qc6+ 43.Kd4 Qb6+ 44.Ke4 Qc6+ 45.Qd5 Qc1 46.Qd6 Qxb2 47.Qf8+ Qg7 48.Qxg7+ Kxg7


click for larger view

This looks drawish. Komodo's line continued: 49.Ke5 h6 50.g4 g5 51.Be1 (51.gxh5 gxh4 is a draw per the Nalimov tablebases) 51...Nf6 52.Kf5 Nd5 53.Bd2 Kf7 54.Bc1 (54.Bxg5 hxg5 55.Kxg5 is also a draw) 54...Ne7+ 55.Ke4 Kg6 56.Bd2 Ng8 57.Bc3 h5 58.gxh5+ Kxh5


click for larger view

And this is also a draw per the Nalimov tablebases. So the estimation that the game should have been drawn without White's 31.f3 is not unreasonable.

Apr-20-13  voyager39: Wonderful pun. Kramnik was the one who deserved to win the candidates.
Apr-20-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <Eyal: ....In practical terms, the game started spinning out of (Carlsen's) control with 26...Bf3! and the resulting tactical murkiness. He probably should have exchanged bishops on d5 first and only then played 27.Ng4, where White seems to enjoy a pleasant edge without much risk.>

In a game with less riding on the outcome, without the time shortage and given Carlsen's Laskerian pragmatic approach, it seems odds-on that he would have plumped for 26.Bxd5 Qxd5 27.Ng4, as this indeed looks like a nice, riskless edge for White. Most probably also, many a strong player who sees less than these top GMs would have gone in for it as well, rather than plunging into the maelstrom.

Apr-20-13  Conrad93: <<Zen (the name of which derives from the Sanskrit "dhyaana" via the Chinese "ch'an"[note 15] is a form of Mahayana Buddhism. The Mahayana school of Buddhism is noted for its proximity with yoga.[157] In the west, Zen is often set alongside yoga; the two schools of meditation display obvious family resemblances.[158] This phenomenon merits special attention since yogic practices have some of their roots in the Zen Buddhist school.[note 16] Certain essential elements of yoga are important both for Buddhism in general and for Zen in particular.[159]>>

Ah, Wikipedia. the most reliable source of information on the internet. *snicker*

Yoga is a form of meditation, but zazen is something completely different.

Apr-21-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <perfidious> Yes, 26.Bxd5 Qxd5 27.Ng4 sure seems like the way to go. At d=27 Critter evaluates the position at [+0.51] after 27...Qd4 28.Qc4 Qxc4 29.dxc4 f6 30.Bd2 Bd6 31.f4 e4 32.Rd1 Kf7 33.Bc3 Rd8 34.Ne3 f5 35.Nd5 Be7 36.Ra1 Rd7 37.Ra6 Ng7 38.Kf2 Ne6 39.Rc6 Ra7 40.Ke3 Ra2 41.Rb6 Nd8 42.Be5 Bf8 43.h3


click for larger view

This sure like a nice position for White, active knight and bishop, more active king and rook. Probably better than Critter's original eval. And the moves used to reach it seem simple and natural. Hard to see Carlsen not drawing this, and possibly even winning. But the clock is a harsh mistress.

Apr-21-13  Conrad93: <This sure like a nice position for White, active knight and bishop, more active king and rook. Probably better than Critter's original eval. And the moves used to reach it seem simple and natural. Hard to see Carlsen not drawing this, and possibly even winning. But the clock is a harsh mistress.>

If that's a draw, I'm the Pope.

Mar-20-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: No further input from 'The Pope' on the position presented by <AK>?
Aug-21-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  cormier: 30.Bh8! instead of 30.Bh4
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