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Apr-28-10 | | diceman: <Petrosianic:
Of course he was, but you make preparation sound somehow negative.>Well the story isn't really about preparation.
More like a lack of it.
11...d5 was part of a "secret weapon" by the
Russians to set Fischer on his heels in
Game 1 of the match.
Remember that he had just won 2 matches 6-0,6-0.
This was their last chance to stop Fischer and
avoid Spassky going thru the Fischer cuisnart.
So the real story is:
1) In spite of the brilliant opening innovation
the Russians still had a loss for their troubles.
2) Petrosian had little to do with the move.
(it wasn't the result of his burning the midnight oil)
Which was why he handled it so poorly at the board.
3) While Fischer sat across the board from Taimanov,
Petrosian, Spassky. He didn't really play individuals.
He faced more of a machine.
Of course the problem was they faced Fischer. |
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Apr-28-10 | | Everett: <checkmate> All interesting points. Individual match-ups are different than slogging through candidates matches and tourneys. This is why Korchnoi and Stein may cause more problems for certain players than former and current champions. Kamsky's record and play against Kramnik is a modern example of this. Adams vs. Kramnik is another. Further, look at Shirov-Kramnik-Kasparov. There is not a straight line at all comparing these three. Even better, take Anand-Kramnik-Kasparov. All great players, but the specific match-ups create different games, and different results. |
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Apr-28-10 | | Everett: <diceman> Also well put. What's interesting is that, as you point out, the "machine" was cumbersome and not of much help, ultimately. Case in point, Petrosian received this prep, but it was not his own, and he flubbed it. It makes me wonder if Petrosian had any say as to who would exactly be his immediate assistants. Did he still have Koblentz to work with? As far as Spassky goes, it seems he had already stopped listening to Bondarevsky, the man who almost single-handedly dragged Spassky to victory in '69. When I've perused "Fischer vs the Russians" book (I think that's the title) everyone had incorrect opinions of Fischer's play, Fischer's weaknesses and Fischer's predilictions. Only Korchnoi realized that Fischer may mix things up in the opening vs Spassky, and saw the American more clearly. Korchnoi was not taken seriously (most of all by Spassky), and I imagine he wasn't used as a second for the reigning champion. Fischer was amazing, distilling all the Russian chess magazine material over the years, while fashioning himself into a monster of a chess player. It's quite possible, if he found a solid second that he actually had some kinship with, he may not had to wait until '72 for the title. As it played out, Fischer was only able to keep his powerful will and focus together for long enough to run the table from '70-'72. In Spassky and Petrosian, the Russian's had highly individualistic chess players to defend their hegemony, and they did a poor job motivating and prepping them as individuals, IMHO. The Russian's would have to wait for an ultra-strong player who also listened to instructions to come through the ranks. Someone young and hungry for the title... |
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Apr-28-10 | | Petrosianic: <Of course the problem was they faced Fischer.> Fischer is not in fact the only guy who ever faced a novelty and didn't lose. You're trying to make this into the Marshall Gambit story, but it isn't. The problem here wasn't in preparation, Petrosian just lost nerve at a critical moment. They'd had the move for months (it was sent to the Central Club in an envelope marked "To the winner of the Petrosian-Korchnoi match"). They'd analyzed the position up through Move 16, and planned to play 16...Rxg2 in that position. Then when the moment came, Petrosian simply didn't play it. He admitted it, but didn't really give a good explanation about why he didn't. I'd assume though, that it was a combination of respect for Fischer, and lack of trust in his seconds (Seutin and Averbakh, as I recall). He must have been afraid that Fischer would find something that they missed. The lesson in it all is to stick to the game plan unless you have a good reason for deviating. He didn't have one. But sometimes innovations do survive a bad debut. Despite being beaten at the board in its outing, the Marshall Gambit went on to become a fully playable opening line. And this line, despite the result of this game, put the variation out of business for White. |
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Apr-29-10 | | diceman: <Petrosianic:
Fischer is not in fact the only guy who ever faced a novelty and didn't lose.>but he was in fact the only one to go 6-0, in
a candidates match leading up to this.
He was in fact the only one to go 6-0 a second time.
He was in fact the only one to take 1st place in the
Palma interzonal to qualify for these matches.
He was in fact the only one to defeat Petrosian in the
remaining games of this match.
He was in fact the only one to go on and defeat Spassky
for the world championship title in 1972.
He was in fact the only American to win the World Chess
Championship.
That's what your missing.
What went on was a little more than just ...d5. |
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Apr-29-10 | | SpiritedReposte: You know the Russians wanted Bobby to lose soooo bad. He still won! Wasn't Botvinnik quoted as saying something after the first 6-0 whitewash like "Bobby's true test will be the next round where a comparable 6-0 result is impossible" Which seemed like a safe bet....but yeah he did it again. |
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Apr-29-10 | | Don Cossacks: A lot of Rusophobes are infesting this page.BTW, Fischer is afraid of Karpov. |
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Apr-29-10 | | Petrosianic: <That's what your missing.> I'm missing it because it has nothing to do with this game, which is what I was talking about. I understand that there are some people who view the guy as a near-religious figure, and that as long as one great claim about him is true, then anything good about him is true. But you've got to realize that there are also some people actually interested in his chess. |
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Apr-29-10 | | diceman: <Petrosianic:
I'm missing it because it has nothing to do with this game,>Oh ok, So Fischer and Petrosian bumped into each other at
the beach and decided to have this match?
(maybe at the local Dairy Queen?)
Bobby said: Hey Tigran.
Tigran said: Hey Bobby, want to play some chess.
Bobby said: Sure, but lets make these some unimportant
off hand games. I may win. After all people have won
chess games before we wouldn’t want to give me too
much credit.
<as long as one great claim about him is true, then anything good about him is true.> So this wasn’t true?
“but he was in fact the only one to go 6-0, in
a candidates match leading up to this.
He was in fact the only one to go 6-0 a second time.
He was in fact the only one to take 1st place in the
Palma interzonal to qualify for these matches.
He was in fact the only one to defeat Petrosian in the remaining games of this match.
He was in fact the only one to go on and defeat Spassky for the world championship title in 1972.
He was in fact the only American to win the World Chess Championship.” Wow, I guess you “caught” me in a lie.
<But you've got to realize that there are also some people actually interested in his chess.> Where?
I think what you mean is interested in chess pre 1970 and post 1972.
I think what you mean is interested in moves like 8.Ba5 from 1962.
I think what you mean is interested in Fischer losses not Fischer wins. Yeah if I didn’t like Fischer. Id rather talk about 1962 rather than 1972.
Id rather talk about it all day long.
Id like to pretend there was nothing else. |
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Apr-29-10 | | Petrosianic: <Where?>
Read up. I just wrote a long post about this game, about how the d5 innovation came about, and how Petrosian lost his nerve when it came time to play the critical line. Instead, you wanted us to take out our hymnals and sing a song about the Fischer-Taimanov match. That's the problem I always end up having with the Fischer Fanboys. They're interested in his legend, but not his chess. |
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Apr-29-10
 | | kingfu: Petrosianic,
I now view Bobby Fischer as the ultimate X-File. I understand your skepticism at RJFs sainthood. Algore is seen as a "prophet." More like profit. I have always maintained that RJFs defeat of The Soviet Machine in the early 70s was one of the most amazing things, ever. But then we have Karpov, Kasparov and now, apparently, Anand! When I play The Catalan , the positions end up blocked like LA in rush hour. Anand's two short wins against Topalov are most impressive. Perhaps Topalov should switch to the King's Indian. RJF was pretty good on the black side of the KID. |
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Apr-29-10 | | thegoodanarchist: Marshall did not lose his nerve and played his gambit against Capablanca. But Marshall was known as a "bombs away" player who disliked any kind of "grind it out" chess. Petrosian, on the other hand, loved a good grind it out game - it was sort of his style. He also had another factor to inhibit playing the novelty: He was a former WC - he could not let himself get crushed like Taimanov and Larsen. Marshall did not have that to live up to. |
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Apr-29-10 | | Riverbeast: Of course Petrosian lost his nerve... He was scared to death of Fischer If he couldn't trust his home preparation, and assumed Fischer was going to refute all of their team analysis over the board, then it's pretty clear he had no hope at all of winning this match |
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Apr-29-10 | | Petrosianic: Marshall was a great player, but Capa was better. There was nothing wrong with the innovation. It gave Black a fully playable game, but not a won game. But despite the loss, the innovation was quite good. After Spassky shut Tal down with White with that line in their Candidates final, he joked about wanting to erect a statue to Frank Marshall. This innovation was more playable, and seems to have shut down the line for White altogether (the Marshall attack didn't put the Ruy Lopez out of business). I've always meant to check and see if anyone had ever reached the position and actually played 16...Rxg2, but haven't gotten around to doing it. And if so, what happened? It wouldn't have to win for Black, necessarily. Even if it only clearly equalized, that would be enough to put the line out of favor. |
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Apr-29-10 | | Petrosianic: Incidentally, the legend about THAT game, that Marshall had to wait 10 years to play it isn't true. He had four opportunities between 1913 and 1915, but played the Petroff Defense each time. |
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Apr-29-10 | | Riverbeast: The funny thing is, in the other game from the '71 Fischer-Petrosian match that we were looking at recently ("Tiger Bomb"...Petrosian played 1. Nf3 2. b3).....It was revealed that Petrosian publicly blamed his seconds for the loss Even though he was worse in the adjourned position, he claimed that his seconds didn't help him analyze enough, or that their adjournment analysis wasn't strong enough to help him save the draw In this game, it was just the opposite...His team gave him strong analysis, and he didn't trust it! |
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Apr-29-10 | | thegoodanarchist: <Petrosianic:
This innovation was more playable...>
Indeed! The White Bishop takes 3 tempi to pin the black Knight, a gain of 2 tempi for Black over a playable position from the Sveshnikov/Pelikan Sicilian. |
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Apr-29-10 | | Riverbeast: I just looked on chesslab.com, to see if anybody played the recommended 16...Rxg2 after this match It came up in only one game (its not in this database) Matijasevic-Baric, corr Yugoslavia 1972
It continued 16...Rxg2 17. Qe3 Nd4 18. Kf1 Nxc2 19. Qf3 Rxf2+ 20. Kxf2 Qc5+ 21. Ke2 Qxc4+ 0-1 But if this is the only game played with this line, and this is why it went out of favor, I think it needs more testing For example at first sight, it looks like instead of 19. Qf3, 19. Qd3 is better (if not winning) for white...Black has two pieces hanging More analysis needed! What do you all think? |
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Apr-29-10 | | fab4: <Petrosianic:That's the problem I always end up having with the Fischer Fanboys. They're interested in his legend, but not his chess.> That's just not true. I'm a big RJF fan, precisely because of his chess,not his legend. Ofcourse I recognize the enormity of his achievements, but it is his chess, and it's dazzlingly pure aesthetic beauty, which lures me in.... |
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Apr-29-10
 | | keypusher: <Riverbeast>
The fact is Fischer's line doesn't make any sense -- it just wastes a tempo. It's a tribute to Fischer that he could win with it. But no one's going to try to revive it. |
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Apr-29-10 | | Riverbeast: <keypusher> Yes, but as Fischer proved, Black has certain structural weaknesses in this position I'm just curious if any other games have been played with 16...Rxg2 (or any other move) that definitively put this line out of business Sometimes lines are considered 'unsound' because of reputation, rather than hard proof...That's why the top GMs revive 'discredited' lines all the time I wonder what Rybka says is best for black after 16. Rd1 I don't have an engine, but if anybody wants to plug it into their computer, please post the analysis |
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Apr-29-10
 | | keypusher: <Riverbeast: <keypusher> Yes, but as Fischer proved, Black has certain structural weaknesses in this position> You're right, but the same weaknesses exist in the modern lines after, say, 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Bf4 e5 8.Bg5 a6 9.Bxf6 gxf6 10.Na3 with an extra tempo. (Side note: I thought one of Fischer's coolest opening ideas was the gambit from the Taimanov match, with the same opening moves as the Petrosian game through White's 8th move, then 8...Qa5+ 9.Qd2! Nxe4 10.Qxa5 Nxa5 11.Be3 (fourth move for the bishop) Kd7 12.N1c3! Nxc3 13.Nxc3 Kd8 14.Nb5!.) I only have Shredder 3, so if someone else can volunteer a more powerful engine that would be better. |
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Apr-29-10 | | gilbav: <Riverbeast> The Opening Tree Mode on chessok.com (http://chessok.com/?page_id=352) gives this Matijasevic - Baric game, and two other games: Bailloux - Tarjan (1972), and Trammell - Ivanov (1996). |
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Apr-29-10 | | Riverbeast: <gilbav> Thanks for the link I looked at those two other games, it looks like black got good play in both of them |
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Apr-29-10 | | DWINS: < Riverbeast: I just looked on chesslab.com, to see if anybody played the recommended 16...Rxg2 after this match It came up in only one game (its not in this database) Matijasevic-Baric, corr Yugoslavia 1972
It continued 16...Rxg2 17. Qe3 Nd4 18. Kf1 Nxc2 19. Qf3 Rxf2+ 20. Kxf2 Qc5+ 21. Ke2 Qxc4+ 0-1 But if this is the only game played with this line, and this is why it went out of favor, I think it needs more testing For example at first sight, it looks like instead of 19. Qf3, 19. Qd3 is better (if not winning) for white...Black has two pieces hanging More analysis needed! What do you all think?> Robert Byrne covers this line in "Both Sides of the Chessboard". He says, "17.Qe3 does not work either: 17...Nd4 18.Kf1 Nxc2 19.Qd3 Rg4 20.Qxc2 Rxc4 21.dxe6 Qxc3 22.e7 Rxd1+ 23.Qxd1 Qh3+ 24.Ke1 Qd7 and wins." He says that the critical move is 17.Ne4
He is also of the opinion that Petrosian played the best move in 16...Bf5, but that he didn't follow it up correctly by playing 17...Bxd3 instead of 17...e4! |
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