|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 165 OF 182 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Sep-04-13 | | galumph:  I agree that there are many fine people on the white side of the board. I maintain that collectively when they moved 31.Rb2 they were essentially saying, "ok lets take the sure draw and maybe black will blunder away the game." Had they gone with the more double-edged 31.Kd1 it would have been much different and under those circumstances I would not have considered their refusal of a draw offer disrespectful. In fact, if they had gone with 31.Kd1 I don't think we would have made a draw offer. As it stands, their collective action was tantamount to saying "We'll take no risks ourselves and hope our opponents screw up." That seems disrespectful of our side's abilities in an objectively equal position. So, knowing that they are playing for a blunder by our side, I look at the board and see that they too could blunder into a loss. For example, 35.c4 Rc4 36.Kc3 g6 37.b4 axb4+ 38.Kxb4 Rc8 39.Ra7+ Kf6 40.Rb6+ Kg5 41.c5 f5 42.c6 fxe4 43.Ra5 Kf5 44.Kc5 e3 45.Ra1 Kf4 46.g3+ Kf3 47.Rf1+ Kg2 48.Re1 Kf2 
click for larger view"But they'd never make that move!!" you say. That's my point. We can play on in pious hope that White will blunder as well as they can. Is that unsportsmanlike? |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | benjinathan:  So, we should ask for a draw? |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | cro777: I will always support my teammates if they want to play on. Personally, I would play 35.c4 (which is objectively the best move in the current position of our game) and offer a draw. That would be the most principled end of a high quality game. |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | capafan: <crawfb5><If we are to play Kc3 eventually, I don't see the point of Ra1, as the rook is as well placed or better on the second rank as the first. I just got up, so maybe I'm missing some move order subtlety...> White is also approaching zugzwang...there are just not that many good moves to choose from here. <We are discussing...
35.h4 Kd6 36.g3 f6 37.c4 Rc5 38.Ra1 Ke6 39.Kc3 g6> Moves 35/36.
g3...h4 probably transpose here.
Move 37.
Delaying c4 almost forces a Rook move...every King move except Kb2?! forces the trade of b-pawn for a-pawn. There are not any good rook moves except for Ra1. It is important to keep in mind that as we search for zugzwang for Black, Black is searching for the same against us. Neither side is actually playing the other side, each is determining the best setup for his/her own pieces trying not to make an obvious blunder. As <cro777> states, Black is endeavoring for the setup he demonstrated. <OCF><FWIW, I need some time to think about 40.b4 axb4 41.Kxb4 Rc8 42.Ra6+ Ke7 43.c5 f5 44. Rxg6 fxe4 45. Rg5> 45.Kf6 46.<any> e3
click for larger view |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | YouRang: <galpumph> I agree that 31.Kd1 would have kept this game going longer. I wouldn't even call it "double-edged". I think it's single-edged -- with only white's side of the blade getting sharper. You maintain that by playing <31.Rb2> and <33.Kc2> <was tantamount to saying "We'll take no risks ourselves and hope our opponents screw up." That seems disrespectful of our side's abilities in an objectively equal position.> Two points:
1. All game of chess involve hoping your opponent will screw up. Whether this hope is reasonable or not depends on the complexity of the position, and the perceived complexity depends on the skill of the player (a position that looks complex to a novice may be trivial to an expert). 2, We don't really know what they are saying, and we don't know if they plan to take risks or not. I have to think that they looked at both 31.Kd1 and 31.Rb2 and for some reason opted for the latter. I can't think of any reason why, except that they must have explored 31.Rb2 lines to some depth and thought that there was sufficient complexity to hope for a subtle but deadly black blunder. But maybe they didn't give 31.Kd1 a good look at all. ~~~~
A funny thing about these team games is that the players are assigned to teams randomly. Normally, this would produce teams of similar strength. However, it's possible that one team might be quite a bit better than the other -- and neither team would know that when the game begins. So, perhaps black is the stronger team in this game. This would explain a couple white moves that seemed (to us) as less dangerous for black. It might also explain why they still (wrongly) think this position is complex enough to hope for a black blunder. On the other hand, perhaps white is stronger, and those unexpected moves that they made were brilliant and beyond our comprehension. That would also explain why they still think this position is complex enough for black to blunder -- because they are right! Anyway, you and I may just have to disagree about whether white has been disrespectful or not. I don't have reason to think they are. In any case, I would maintain that there's nothing to gain by taking offense. |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | hms123: <benjinathan>
<So, we should ask for a draw?>From my perspective: Yes, we should. |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | stunningmove: First, if we think it's a draw and are offered one by white we should accept. No questions. To do otherwise would be unsportsmanlike. As for why they didn't accept, it's almost assuredly because the majority on the team aren't convinced. It may be that the one or two best players are convinced but the others are not because they haven't seen the position played out to it's conclusion and still banking on the passed c pawn. Imagine how they felt prior to our move 20...Qd7. They were following a line recommended by Khalifman. Without playing a unique move of their own, they thought they had won. Then our move came and within a few more moves we had equalized with d5. Then after trades they were left with a rook ending in which they have a passed pawn. The hope those players are holding onto is the hope they built up based on their expectations of the opening. I have been there, I'm sure we all have. Your opponent plays right into your prepared line, you think you've got him and then, they come up with a surprise move and you draw. The disappointment of that draw when you think you're winning is greater than a regular draw. So that is why I assume some of them are holding on. |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | crawfb5: <capafan> I agree there may not be many good moves to make progress, but I think both sides are a long way from approaching zugzwang, with playable waiting moves available. So if the best we have is to "try to run them out of moves" I think we should offer a draw and move on. |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | capafan: <White is also approaching zugzwang...there are just not that many good moves to choose from here.> My comment was aimed at around move 38-40...we are close to approaching the point of exhausting waiting moves and little hope of breaking through unless Black assists and they have shown that they are more than capable of drawing. It is a good time to consider offering a draw and moving on. I am curious of Black's strategy once they played d5...offering a draw gets me closer to finding out. |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | Pedro Fernandez: Tell me, <AylerKupp>, what have you been up to? From an analysis I did by playing 35.c4 I got the following position,
click for larger view
not chance to hide our king. |
|
Sep-04-13
 | | OhioChessFan: <45...Kf6 46.<any> e3 > 46. g4
I do know there was some sense Black finding h5 was the point to draw. Fine by me. |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | YouRang: <stunningmove> I agree. Team white has the right to think they still have a chance to win, and they have the right to be wrong about that (and hopefully they are). I'll also agree with <kwid>'s comment that we (team black) should make no further draw offers (except in the unlikely event that the position becomes ridiculous). |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | capafan: <OCF><<45...Kf6 46.<any> e3 >
46. g4
>
Of course, you are correct...my statement was incorrect. Still a draw, but Black cannot play the immediate e3. |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | morfishine: I would agree to a draw if this were a computer-assisted game. But since its not, I think we need to give Black a chance to make an inaccuracy once they reach a partial-zugzwang position. IMO, they've already made at least one "less than accurate move", notably <33...h5>. True, our top analysts have assessed this as best. However, once Black is lacking a decent move (after the position evolves), he may regret having leapt to <h5> in one move instead of taking two. I assess the current position as slightly better for White. Not enough to score the point, but slightly better. Therefore, the correct path should be to maintain our solidity [ie: do nothing to weaken our position] and play positionally with a view that Black will be obliged to weaken his position in the near future due to a partial-zugzwang situation. In other words, maintain or improve our position when inevitably, Black will weaken his. Perhaps then, our slight advantage will become a real advantage. If its still not enough, then its a draw. With that said, I have no desire to drag this out like the POGO game :) ***** |
|
Sep-04-13
| | OhioChessFan: I am a little surprised at the current combo of c4/no draw offer. |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | WinKing: <morfishine: With that said, I have no desire to drag this out like the POGO game :) > I dunno <morf> I kind of enjoyed bouncing her king around like a pinball. No
such fun in this game though. |
|
Sep-04-13
 | | AylerKupp: <Pedro Fernandez> As far as this game is concerned just trying to absorb what others are saying. As I've mentioned before, the endgame is not my strong point (and that's relatively speaking!) so I am selfishly continuing to play in an attempt to learn something and perhaps make a worthwhile contribution. But I am not doing much original analysis. And, of course, I am continuing to maintain the ATSS in case it is helpful to someone. I am spending a lot of time developing a new feature which I think will finally make it really useful. But I don't know when I'll be ready to make it available for downloading since there is still much work remaining to be done. And I have to say, I am sure that there are a lot of moves between 35.c4 and the last position you posted. But you are right, there is no place for our king to hide. |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | morfishine: <Winking: I kind of enjoyed bouncing her king around like a pinball> Yes, it was a good exercise on the whole. I wish I was a better pinball player... I'd like to get to the point where I can look at a position for about 5-seconds and know its a draw... ***** |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | capafan: <morfishine>I have yet to see a line where Black could not easily place the BK where he can easily shuffle it back and forth, almost irrespective of what White plays, or with alternate lines as I have shown, ultimately play f5/a4. The key is allowing Black the following setup.
click for larger viewIs it possible for White to prevent this setup, without making an inferior move? Or do we have an answer for <cro777>'s" <After 35.h4 Kd6 36.g3 f6 37.c4 Rc5 38.Ra1 Ke6 39.Kc3 g6 40.Rd1 Rc8 41.Rd5 Ra8 42.Kb2 a4 (42...f5 is also possible) 43.b4 a3+ 44.Ka2> As someone else has mentioned, playing c4 is consistent with offering a draw, not continuing along lines as <morfishine> has suggested. We should play c4 and offer a draw or play g3/h4 and continue to wait for a mistake. |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | morfishine: <capafan> Yes, the continuation with <40...Rc8> has proven very tough to crack. I've abandoned 41.Rd5 due to <cro777>'s pointed analysis. I sure am glad he's on our team! I've concluded 41.Rd5 is a positional inaccuracy + a loss of tempo. But we can hold onto the partial zugzwang theme with 41.Rd2 The point being that if Black (move 41...) "re-lifts" the rook to c7/c6/c5 White plays 42.Rd8 And if Black plays 41...Ra8 White responds 42.c5
(I haven't even looked at 41...Ke7)
I've done nothing past these points on this approach
In any case, I'm somewhat mystified why people are adamant to try to coax Black into a partial zugzwang position. We are only talking about 5 moves or so. I'm not effected at all about the 38% draw offer. Its the votes for <35.c4> that don't make sense. The move is just not enterprising enough. If everyone of those <35.c4> voters included draw, which they should, we'd already be over 50%. (Of course, if Black plays with perfection and with no inaccuracies whatsoever, then its drawn and I'd be satisfied) Oh well, I won't get emotionally involved with it. I'm just trying all alternatives. And we can always examine further if the game is drawn soon. Learning and getting better is what its all about, right? ***** |
|
Sep-04-13
| | OhioChessFan: <After 35.h4 Kd6 36.g3 f6 37.c4 Rc5 38.Ra1 Ke6 39.Kc3 g6 40.Rd1 Rc8 41.Rd5 Ra8 42.Kb2 a4 (42...f5 is also possible) 43.b4 a3+ 44.Ka2> How about 42. Rb5 f5 43. exf5+ gxf5 44. Rb6+
click for larger viewOther lines I'm not done with:
42...a4 43. b4 a3 44. Ra5 Rxa5 45. bxa5 a2 46. Kb2
click for larger view42..Kd6 43. Rb6+ Ke7 44. c5
click for larger viewif f5, Rxg6 and the doubled e pawns seem controllable, a lot more to look at though. |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | morfishine: <OhioChessFan> Excellent job, I will look at tomorrow: I'm starting a new job and need an early start :) Real quick, can you tell if these can transpose starting with <35.g3>? Looks like 35.h4 is out and I've switched to 35.g3 I'll check this out too tomorrow. Nice job!
***** |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | Pedro Fernandez: <AylerKupp: <Pedro Fernandez> As far as this game is concerned just trying to absorb what others are saying. As I've mentioned before, the endgame is not my strong point (and that's relatively speaking!) so I am selfishly continuing to play in an attempt to learn something and perhaps make a worthwhile contribution. But I am not doing much original analysis.
And, of course, I am continuing to maintain the ATSS in case it is helpful to someone. I am spending a lot of time developing a new feature which I think will finally make it really useful. But I don't know when I'll be ready to make it available for downloading since there is still much work remaining to be done. And I have to say, I am sure that there are a lot of moves between 35.c4 and the last position you posted. But you are right, there is no place for our king to hide.> Thanks my friend. I have no doubt our best shot is to play 35.c4, I mean, what do have to do in the king side if they possess the dominion in there? I'm proving to place our king in a4 (after 35.c4, of course) and then activate our rook putting it in the seventh or eighth rank but still I have not found a good plan. I know <morfishine>, <Nickster> and <WinKing>, and you also have given your opinion in this hard to win finale, but without a real success. Let's see, for example this variation after 35.c4 Rc5.
click for larger view
According to my plan: 36.Kb2 Kd6 37.Ka3.
click for larger view
In this position I did prefer 37...Kc6 since black g-pawn serves as pivot to f-pawn. 38.Ka4 g6 39.Rd2 f5
click for larger view
40.exf5 gxf5.
click for larger view
This is my critical position. I don't know whether we can win this. I suspect NO! lamentably. May you please power on your "bulb" in this kind of plan? Perhaps you see a bit more than I, and/or improving it. Well, I did continue this virtual plan but quite empirically. Let me write the moves in order you can reproduce it. 41.Rd8 e4 42.Re8 h4 43.g3 hxg3 44.hxg3 Kd6 45.Rd8+ Ke5 46.Rd1 e3 47.b4 Rxc4 (this is our big drama, we can't preserve the couple queen side pawns) 48.Kxa5 Rg4 49.b5 e2 50.Re1 Re4 51.b6 f4 52.gxf4 Kxf4 53.b7 Re8 54.Kb6 Kf3 55.Ka7 Kf2 56.Rxe2+ Kxe2 57.b8=Q Rxb8 58.Kxb8. It is redundant to say that this post is also directed to all of our Teammates. |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | crawfb5: <PK> I looked some at trying to work the WK over to a4, but could not find a way to make it work. I will look some at your lines tomorrow when I am fresher. |
|
| Sep-04-13 | | capafan: <OCF><if f5, Rxg6 and the doubled e pawns seem controllable, a lot more to look at though.> Comparing your last positional diagram to my original variation is very interesting...without b4 and the trade of a and b pawn, the WK stays back to watch the doubled e-pawns if f5. And the WR behind enemy lines is also interesting. I will look at this tonight...I am all for playing longer if we can find something tangible. |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 165 OF 182 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
Annotations by 