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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 166 OF 182 ·
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| Sep-04-13 | | cro777:  <OCF> After 42. Rb5 f5 43. exf5+ gxf5 44. Rb6+ Black plays 44...Kf7 followed by ...Rg8 with counterplay. |
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Sep-04-13
 | | OhioChessFan: 35.h4 Kd6 36.g3 f6 37.c4 Rc5 38.Ra1 Ke6 39.Kc3 g6 40.Rd1 Rc8 41.Rd5 Ra8 42. Rb5 f5 43. exf5+ gxf5 44. Rb6+ Kf7 45. Rh6 Rg8 46. Rxh5 Rxg3+ 47. Kb2 Kf6 48. Rh6+ Ke7(48..Rg6 49. Rxg6+ Kxg6 50. Kc3 and I think we're winning) 
click for larger view 49. Ra6 and now I'm not sure
click for larger view |
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Sep-04-13
| | OhioChessFan: <morf> I think g3 and h4 essentially transpose. If they don't, the difference is too subtle for me to see. |
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Sep-04-13
| | OhioChessFan: In my last......if the g Pawn and King weren't on the same rank, 46...Rxg3 would be followed by 47. Rxf5+ Can we change move order to avoid that? |
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| Sep-04-13 | | cro777: 35.h4 Kd6 36.g3 f6 37.c4 Rc5 38.Ra1 Ke6 39.Kc3 g6 40.Rd1 Rc8 41.Rd5 Ra8 42. Rb5 f5 43. exf5+ gxf5 44. Rb6+ Kf7 45. Rh6 Rg8 46. Rxh5 Rxg3+ 47. Kb2 Black stands better after 47...Kg6 |
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Sep-04-13
| | OhioChessFan: After 47...Kg6 the best I'm finding is a Pawn race draw. The only other move I see as possibly improving is 45. c5. Maybe I'll look tomorrow. |
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Sep-04-13
 | | AylerKupp: <<morfishine> Of course, if Black plays with perfection and with no inaccuracies whatsoever, then its drawn and I'd be satisfied> The same could probably be said about the following position, yet over the last 500+ years and untold games the White players still keep trying for a win: :-)
click for larger viewSeriously, it all depends on the mood of the team and how many, shall we say, "tenacious" players we have. And as far as the Pogonina game <OhioChessFan>, <imag>, and <Tabanus> as well as Ms. Pogonina herself had indicated a draw after 58...Kc5 and the following position, almost 2 months before the actual end of the game:
click for larger viewBut I also enjoyed pushing her king around and forcing a WGM to go for the draw even though ahead in material at the end. I guess there were some "tenacious" players in that game also, but it might have been facilitated by being allowed to use computers ("And leave the thinking to us, folks!") |
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Sep-05-13
| | AylerKupp: <Pedro Fernandez> I had some thoughts about your line: 35.c4 Rc5 <36.Kb2> <Kd6> 37.Ka3 Kc6 38.Ka4 g6 39.Rd2 f5 40.exf5 gxf5 41.Rd8 e4 42.Re8 <h4> 43.g3 hxg3 44.hxg3 Kd6 45.Rd8+ Ke5 46.Rd1 e3 47.b4 Rxc4 48.Kxa5 <Rg4> 49.b5 e2 50.Re1 Re4 51.b6 <f4> 52.<gxf4> Kxf4 53.b7 Re8 54.Kb6 Kf3 55.Ka7 Kf2 56.Rxe2+ Kxe2 57.b8=Q Rxb8 58.<Kxb8> <36.Kb2> The immediate Kc2-b2 is intriguing, going after the a-pawn immediately before Black can start their k-side counterplay. <36...Kd6> Having said that, I would think that Black would be better off starting his k-side counterplay immediately with 36...g6 or 36...Ke6, both aiming for ...f5. White's king by himself can't do anything on a4 so why waste time bringing the Black king over to the q-side? <42...h4> I think that Black's king belongs on the center or the k-side to support pushing their pawns. So 42...Kd7 forces White's rook off the e-file behind Black's passed e-pawn and after, say, 43.Rg8 or 43.Rh8, 43... e3 I don't see how Black's e-pawn can be stopped. <48...Rg4> This seems like a loss of tempo. The g-pawn is not important and Black is not going to take it anyway. Better to move the king to help advance the e-pawn, 48...Ke4. If then 49.b5, 49...e2 50.Re1 Kf3
click for larger viewIf now 51.b6 Rc2 and Black's rook can get behind the b-pawn and prevent it from queening, even if it involves giving itself up. White's rook will have to do the same after ...Kf2 to prevent the e-pawn from queening, and then White's king will be too far away to deal with Black's f-pawn after Black captures the g-pawn. <51...f4> I think this would be a terrible blunder since after 52.b7 there is no way to stop the b-pawn from queening since Black's king blocks the rook from getting to the 8th rank to stop it. After 52...f3 53.b8=Q+ White should win easily. <52.gxf4+> But this returns the favor by allowing Black's rook to get back to the 8th rank. All in all I don't like the approach of going after Black's a-pawn with the White king. It puts White's king out of play and it can't penetrate the q-side on its own because Black's rook and a-pawn control all the entry squares. In the meantime, Black can start their k-side counterplay with ...g6, ...f5, and getting a passed pawn of their own which can be supported by their king. <58.Kxb8> This reminds me of a story I read a long time ago. A chess master was walking by 2 very young kids that had arrived at this position and he smiled, wondering how long it would take them to give up the game as a draw. When he walked by again some time later he saw only one of them looking sad and had the following conversation: Master: "So, did the two of you finally agree to a draw?" Young Kid: "No, he mated me."
So, I guess that as long as you're tenacious and there are no computers involved, there is always hope for a win. |
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| Sep-05-13 | | DanLanglois:  <we play it out to demonstrate their pettiness.>
I'm not clear on whose pettiness this would demonstrate. Ours is a given? I can't work it up in my mind as 'disrespectful' when somebody declines a draw offer. Not under any conceivable circumstances whatsoever. Perhaps, because I am thinking of particular cases like when Fischer beat Petrosian, who hadn't, even after the game was over, gotten over the fact that Fischer had declined his draw offer. |
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| Sep-05-13 | | DanLanglois: <perhaps white is stronger, and those unexpected moves that they made were brilliant and beyond our comprehension. That would also explain why they still think this position is complex enough for black to blunder -- because they are right!> If they think they can win, then I think they can lose. In which case, I'm glad they declined. |
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| Sep-05-13 | | morfishine: <AylerKupp> I met my best friends at <CG> thru the POGO game, so all-in-all, it was a very positive experience ***** |
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Sep-05-13
| | OhioChessFan: <35.h4 Kd6 36.g3 f6 37.c4 Rc5 38.Ra1 Ke6 39.Kc3 g6 40.Rd1 Rc8 41.Rd5 Ra8 42. Rb5 f5 43. exf5+ gxf5 44. Rb6+ Kf7 45. Rh6 Rg8 46. Rxh5 Rxg3+ 47. Kb2 Black stands better after 47...Kg6> First try:
47..Kg6 48. Rh8 f4 49. h5+ Kg7 50. Re8 f3 51. Rxe5 Rg2+ 52. Ka3 f2 53. Rf5
click for larger viewNot sure about 49...Kg5 |
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Sep-05-13
| | OhioChessFan: Our King on b2 being outside the f Pawn box is probably why we can't win this. Everything I'm trying with 49...Kg5 leads to a draw if Black wants to exchange Rooks. First try : 49...Kg5 50. Re8 Kxh5 51. Rxe5+ Rg5 and from here on out, any Rook exchange leads to a Pawn race draw, I think. 52. Re1 (52...Kh4 which doesn't even look best leads to a draw, eg 53. Rh1+ leads to a Rook exchange and a draw) I missed that Kg6 works originally because I didn't see 48. Rh8 <f4> which stops the Rook from being skewered after Rg8+ and it also leaves our King outside the box. |
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Sep-05-13
| | OhioChessFan: 49...Kg5 50. h6 might be worth a look. Not seeing much here. I am still not getting the c4/no draw offer. It's like a contradiction in terms. |
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| Sep-05-13 | | cro777: After 49.h5+ the placement of the king on f7 is necessary 35.h4 Kd6 36.g3 f6 37.c4 Rc5 38.Ra1 Ke6 39.Kc3 g6 40.Rd1 Rc8 41.Rd5 Ra8 42. Rb5 f5 43. exf5+ gxf5 44. Rb6+ Kf7 45. Rh6 Rg8 46. Rxh5 Rxg3+ 47. Kb2 Kg6 48. Rh8 f4 49. h5+ Kf7 and Black is winning 
click for larger view
50.h6 f3 51.h7 Rh3
In other variations White cannot stop black connected passers. |
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| Sep-05-13 | | cro777: <OCF: I am still not getting the c4/no draw offer. It's like a contradiction in terms.> This ending is an easy draw for Black. Therefore, with 35.c4 (which is the main line) AND a draw offer we want this game, very well played by both sides, to come to a logical end. The sidelines also lead to a draw. But if some of our teammates want to play on then 35.g3 is the right choice. |
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Sep-05-13
| | OhioChessFan: Yeah, that's a loser. One line is 52. Rd8 Rxh7 53. Rd3 e4 0-1 Strange how Rxg3+ is essentially the winning move. One other idea I tried and couldn't get to work was 42. b4 with the idea of getting the King off the 3rd rank and/or escorting the c Pawn. 35.h4 Kd6 36.g3 f6 37.c4 Rc5 38.Ra1 Ke6 39.Kc3 g6 40.Rd1 Rc8 41.Rd5 Ra8 42. b4
click for larger view |
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Sep-05-13
| | OhioChessFan: I am wondering if we forgo g3 now with an immediate h4, if that solves the Rxg3+ problem. |
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Sep-05-13
| | AylerKupp: <morfishine> I don't know. The POGO game was my first team on-line game and it led me to my current state of chess debauchery. Still, as you said, it was a good and fun experience and I met a lot of nice people. Good luck in you new job. One of my favorite movies is "Quigley Down Under", starring Tom Selleck, Laura San Giacomo, and Alan Richmann (one of my favorite actors playing, as usual, the villain). If you haven't seen the movie the, in an uncharacteristic attempt to be brief, Tom Selleck plays a sharpshooter who is hired to go to Australia by Alan Richmann. After an altercation, Selleck and Laura San Giacomo are tied together and dropped off in the middle of the Australian outback to die. Whereupon Laura San Giacomo (who plays a somewhat demented woman) says: "You know, Roy? Sometimes when you start a new job things don't always go the way you expect them to go." Or something like that. I hope that your start is a better one. :-) |
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Sep-05-13
| | OhioChessFan: Here's a position where I didn't have us play g3 and essentially followed the game line. There are some nuances of Black's moves, especially whether they'd play Kd6, but I think it all leads to the same point, after our Rxh5
click for larger view(I'll start over with move numbers to avoid confusion) Maybe then 1..Rg3+ 2. Kd2 Rxg2+ 3. Ke1
click for larger view |
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| Sep-05-13 | | capafan: <OCF><I am still not getting the c4/no draw offer. It's like a contradiction in terms.> Beats me...
As it appears almost everyone has voted (26) and the draw offers stand at only 30%, then the team has elected to play on; therefore, I will change my vote from c4 to g3 and retract my draw offer. I sure hope our position when we do offer a draw looks better then than now or we are going to look foolish. |
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| Sep-05-13 | | cro777: <capafan: I will change my vote from c4 to g3 and retract my draw offer.> I was about to do the same thing. There is no point in playing 35.c4 without a draw offer. |
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Sep-05-13
 | | mistermac: <35.g3 Re6 36.h4 g6 37.Ra1><cro777>
clearly is <35.g3 <<Ke6>> 36.h4 g6 37.Ra1> Pedantic me!
I agree, in the state of my limited analytic ability, with the logical dichotomy: <c4> aggressive draw affer <g3>, or perhaps <h4>, a subtle, but venturesome quest for Zugzwang and glory or death. |
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| Sep-05-13 | | cro777: How to continue after 35.g3
35.g3 Ke6 36.h4 g6 37.Ra1
This is the basic position in the 35.g3 line.
click for larger viewBlack's main move here is 37...f6 (an immediate 37...f5 is also possible). White also has a possibility to interpolate c4/Kc3. Thanks <mistermac>. |
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Sep-05-13
| | mistermac: Wow, the team has decided in favour of out and out war! Good on us! I could not decide, but now the team has showm its desire, and I gladly comply, and my curiosity for the mysteries of the <post mortem> can wait the outcome. |
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