< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Apr-27-08|| ||tallinn: So, people found that Bh6 (and then Bxg7) as well as c5 (like in the game) are good and winning moves and strategies for white in this game. How about the combination of both? This is how the game went from the puzzle position with Fritz as black and me as white:|
25. Bh6 Qc8 26. c5 b5 27. cxd6 Bb6+ 28. Kh1 Reb7 29. Bxg7 Rxg7 30. Qh6 Ng6 31. fxg6 Kh8 32. gxh7! Qxg4 (32... Rxg4? 33. d7! Rxd7 (Bxd7?? 34. Qxf6+ Kxh7 35. Rh3+ Kg8 36. Rh8#; Qxd7?? 34. Qf8+ Kxh7 35. Rh3+ Kg6 36. Rh6+ Kg5 37. Qf6#) 34. Rxg4 ) 33. Rxg4
Note how the white pawn on d6 finally justifies gxh7 and decides the game.
|Apr-27-08|| ||RandomVisitor: |
click for larger view
<1. (2.76): 25.Bh6> Qc8 26.Kf1 Red7 27.Bb1 Re7 28.Ba2 Kh8 29.Bxg7+ Rxg7 30.Qh6 Qd7 31.Rxg7 Qxg7 32.Rxg7 Rxg7 33.Qd2 Rd7 34.Bb3 a5 35.Kf2 Ba8 36.Qd3 Bb7 37.Bc2 Kg8 38.Nb5 Be7 39.Qb3
2. (2.68): 25.c5 b5 26.cxd6 Rd7 27.Kf1 Qb8 28.Bxa7 Rxa7 29.Ne2 Rb7 30.axb5 Bxb5 31.Bxb5 axb5 32.Qh6 Qa7 33.Rc3 Rd7 34.Rc6 Qa1+ 35.Qc1
3. (2.08): 25.Qh4 Rf7 26.b4 Qb8 27.b5 Be8 28.bxa6 g6 29.c5 Rg7 30.cxb6 Bxb6 31.Nd5 Bxe3+ 32.Rxe3 Nd7 33.fxg6 Bxg6 34.Rf3 Kh8 35.Bb5
|Apr-27-08|| ||johnlspouge: Toga II 1.3.1 evaluates my line
25.c5, threatening 26.Bc4+ Kh8 27.Qh4, etc.
as winning (value +1.30), but obviously inferior to the game line.
|Apr-27-08|| ||znprdx: This position is ridiculous. It looks like what happens when a player, usually Black, tenaciously tries to play every defensive maneuver imaginable waiting for White to prematurely overreach.|
Within a minute I settled on what I'd probably play OTB: 25. c5 just upon instinct. It then took about 5 minutes to see the plan aiming to get the knight onto d5 to strike f6 (and b6!).
Presuming ....25.d5 26.e4xd5 I guess the fun starts with ...Bxd5 Aha, how cute....If White tries 27. Bh6 then Nx[B]d5 is threatened, because the g4 will hold the Bc4 queen winning pin.
Ok this is is wild...I'm going to time out - the fuses are blowing: Another idea is 27. Bxa6 Rx[B]a6 28. Bh6....
Perhaps less heroic is 25. b4 setting up a zugswang. Even 25. probably is good enough. Perhaps this problem should be try to find what will not win for White.
OK insane it is ...I give up.
OH NO - the obvious Bc4+ works...the best is in the notes 27...f6x[B]g5 28. Rxg5 d5 29.Bxd5 Bx[B]d5 30. Nx[B]d5
He-he, I was right all along :) that little old knight will do the clean-up
|Apr-27-08|| ||johnlspouge: I deleted my previous post, because it seemed a pity to ignore a clean, logical solution on a Sunday. <My revised variations were generated with aid from Toga II 1.3.1.> |
After 26.Bc4+, the position revolved around the threat of Anastasia's mate: http://www.markalowery.net/Chess/Ch....
Sunday (Insane): White to play and win.
Material: Even. White has an impressive attack based on his spatial advantage on the K-side. The battery Rg3 and Rg4 pin Pg7 to Kg8. Because of the battery, Black is completely passive. The Be3 can intensify the pressure on Pg7 with Bh6, and Qh5 is nearby. White cannot overwhelm Black with firepower against Pg7, however, so his attack must shift. The White Nc3 and Bd3 are not contributing to the attack, although they hold the pressure from the Black battery Qb7 and Bc6.
Candidates (25.): c5
leaving Kh8 with no legal move, making it ripe for Anastasia's mate on the h-file, as follows.
27.Rh4 (threatening 29.Qxh7 Nxh7 30.Rxh7+ Kxh7 31.Rh3#)
Only the anti-positional moves 27…g6 and 27…g5 can stop Anastasia's mate.
(1) 27…g6 28.fxg6 (threatening 29.Bxh6, collapsing Black's position)
(2) 27…g5 28.Bxg5 (threatening 29.Bxf6+ 30.Rg8#)
28…Rf7 29.Bh6 (threatening 30.Rg8#)
and Black's position collapses.
There is no effective way to meet the threat, so Black's response to 25.c5 must prepare for it. Black must prevent Bd3 from controlling the a2-g7 diagonal, but the alternatives are even less appealing than facing the threat above.
(1) 25…d5 26.exd5 Bxd5 [Be8 27.Qh4] 27.Nxd5 Qxd5 28.Bc4
pinning and winning Qd5
(2) 25…Be8 26.Bc4+ Bf7
[26…Kh8 27.Qh6 forces Black to hemorrhage material to stop Anastasia's mate]
27.Rxg7+ Kh8 28.Rg8+ Bxg8 29.Rxg8#
(3) 25…b5 26.cxd6
and Black loses the exchange.
|Apr-27-08|| ||xKinGKooLx: I thought 25. Bh6 too. I thought that the subtle 25. c5 was very hard to see, since it's a small pawn move away from the action on the kingside. Good puzzle, but tough. Kudos to Ivanov for seeing it.|
|Apr-27-08|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <tallinn> <(25. Bh6 Qc8 26. c5 b5 27. cxd6 Bb6+ 28. Kh1 Reb7 29. Bxg7 Rxg7 30. Qh6 Ng6 31. fxg6 Kh8 32. gxh7! Qxg4 32... Rxg4? 33. d7! Rxd7 (Bxd7?? 34. Qxf6+ Kxh7 35. Rh3+ Kg8 36. Rh8#; Qxd7?? 34. Qf8+ Kxh7 35. Rh3+ Kg6 36. Rh6+ Kg5 37. Qf6#) 34. Rxg4 ) 33. Rxg4>|
I think this continuation makes a lot of sense. It's realistic, forcing and decisive.
|Apr-27-08|| ||TrueBlue: white is obviously better, but extremely complicated position, deserves to be Sunday. Problem is that white has way too many good moves and black has good defense. I believe the key is increasing the pressure on the black king, so I like c5 followed by Bd4. Here is one possible line:|
25. c5 dxc5 26. Bc4+ Kh8
27. Rh3 Rf7 28. Bh6 gxh6 29. Rhg3 Rg7 30. Rxg7 Qxg7 31. Rxg7 Rxg7
and here is another:
25. c5 bxc5 26. Bc4+ Kh8 27. Rh4 Rf7
fun puzzle, but I believe I got the main idea ...
time to check
|Apr-27-08|| ||TrueBlue: ok, I believe I got it. As I said, many ways for black to defend, but c5 followed by Bc4+ is a key move to increase the pressure. Moving the g7 pawn is an obvious attempt by black to relieve pressure on the h7 pawn, but it opens other troubles.|
|Apr-27-08|| ||goodevans: I reckon the key to this is realising just how weak g8 is. Once you’ve realised that then 25 c5, clearing the way for the check, probably isn’t that difficult to see.|
This, alas, is all supposition as I didn’t even get close. Hindsight’s a wonderful thing!
|Apr-27-08|| ||TrueBlue: <johnlspouge> <Only the anti-positional moves 27…g6 and 27…g5 can stop Anastasia's mate.> Not true. Rf7 obviously stops it and it may be the best move. Of course, you are excused because the position is very complicated and black has built a very good defense. However, claiming that white has forcing moves in this position is incorrect; it wouldn't be that difficult if this was true.|
|Apr-27-08|| ||Smothered Mate: How about 25... b5 ?
Hiarcs at 18 ply gives
26. cxd6 Rd7 27. Bxa7 Qxa7+ 28. Kf1 Qc5 29. Qh6 Ng6 30. Qe3
click for larger view
|Apr-27-08|| ||patzer2: For today's insanely difficult Sunday puzzle, White plays the clearance pseudo sacrifice 25. c5!! to continue a decisive assault on Black's weakened King side castle position which arguably began as early as 14. Rf3 .|
The finale 30. Qxh7+! initiates a mate-in-four after 30...Nxh7 (30...Rxh7 31. Rg8#) 31. Rxh7+ Kxh7 (31...Rxh7 32. Rg8#) 32. Rh3+ Bh4 33. Rxh4#.
Interestingly, as noted by <Random Visitor> and <MostlyAverageJoe>'s posted computer analysis, 25. Bh6!! may be an even stronger winning alternative.
|Apr-27-08|| ||johnlspouge: <<TrueBlue> wrote: <johnlspouge> <Only the anti-positional moves 27…g6 and 27…g5 can stop Anastasia's mate.> Not true. Rf7 obviously stops it and it may be the best move.>|
You are correct of course. To avoid verbosity, I usually insert the word "feasible" somewhere to avoid listing alternatives that obviously throw the game, and I forgot to do so here.
<However, claiming that white has forcing moves in this position is incorrect; it wouldn't be that difficult if this was true.>
A game at Q odds between master players does not have forcing moves, but few would call the position
click for larger view
difficult. My intention was to give an analysis showing that this position demonstrably leads to overwhelming advantage.
<Of course, you are excused because the position is very complicated and black has built a very good defense.>
Thanks. By the way, it is not "Anastasia's mate", but "Greco's"
(another mate on the h-file, but with a B not an N aiding). Don't worry about missing the error, though. Everyone makes mistakes :)
|Apr-27-08|| ||deadlysin: the check was hard to see|
|Apr-27-08|| ||234: Saturday puzzle <14. ?> Apr-26-08 Yusupov vs J Nogueiras, 1985|
|Apr-27-08|| ||DarthStapler: Didn't get it, also since I am a fan of Sergey Kudrin it's sad to see him lose|
|Apr-27-08|| ||DavidD: This game was played at the US Open in Chicago, probably in 1989. I witnessed the game and its final. Incredibly, my friend and I were standing on the side discussing the exact puzzle position. We tried to make various K-side sacs work, but got nowhere. Kundrin was at the table concentrating. As we turned around, there was Ivanov behind us concentrating on the demonstration board. Suddenly he smiled, went to the table and played 25. c5! Minutes later when Kundrin resigned, he smiled at Ivanov. You could tell that while he had missed the idea entirely, the whole concluding combination had really impressed him.|
|Apr-27-08|| ||zenpharaohs: I went with 25. Bh6. The game line has the backbreaking mistake 27 ... g5? to make it look like White is better off than he deserves. And the response 25 ... b5 will get White's white bishop out of the picture as opposed to taking the pawn on c5.|
Looks like I will have to clear the previous puzzle off the Quad Core to get to the bottom of this one.
|Apr-27-08|| ||dw98: 30...Nxh7 31. Rxh7+ Kxh7 (31...Rxh7 32.Rg8#)32.Rh3+ Bh4 33.Rxh4#|
|Apr-28-08|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <zenpharaohs: Looks like I will have to clear the previous puzzle off the Quad Core>|
Before you do that, can you reply to my question here: Yusupov vs J Nogueiras, 1985
|Apr-28-08|| ||znprdx: <goodevans: I reckon the key to this is realising just how weak g8 is. Once you’ve realised that then 25. c5, clearing the way for the check, probably isn’t that difficult to see.>|
Absolutely the real point...BUT once again (as I have posted on perhaps dozens of occasions) it is NOT always necessary to have ‘seen’ (implying ‘calculated’) a whole line, but rather to be able to ‘envision’ (implying ‘speculated’) the potential for success. This distinction is not unlike that made between a ‘pseudo’ and ‘pure’ sacrifice. Often the decisive factor is the ensuing >synergy< - in this case the ‘g8’ weakness – which is far from obvious. Kudrin was almost a whole class stronger than Ivanov and probably expected him to become over-zealous.
<zenpharaohs: ..... The game line has the backbreaking mistake 27 ... g5?> There was no defense...set up the pieces and try it out...h6 does not hold. I think this is what Kurin missed. Did you find something?
|Apr-28-08|| ||Phony Benoni: <znprdx: ...it is NOT always necessary to have ‘seen’ (implying ‘calculated’) a whole line, but rather to be able to ‘envision’ (implying ‘speculated’) the potential for success. This distinction is not unlike that made between a ‘pseudo’ and ‘pure’ sacrifice. Often the decisive factor is the ensuing synergy - in this case the ‘g8’ weakness – which is far from obvious. Kudrin was almost a whole class stronger than Ivanov and probably expected him to become over-zealous.>|
This is an insightful comment, and explains why I had the feeling people would find 25.c5 without being able to fully calculate the sequel. However, I do have to be picky about one irrelevant point. At the time of this game Ivanov was rated 2619, Kudrin 2670. That's hardly a whole class by any measure.
By the way, there was a persistent rumor at the time that Ivanov was not stone cold sober during the game. We should probably be generous and attribute this to a Caissa-inspired frenzy.
|Apr-28-08|| ||kevin86: An artistic mate at the end:30...♖xh7 31 ♖g8#... or the other sac 30... ♘xh7 31 ♖xh7+ ♔xh7 (or ♖h7 allows the same ♖g8#) 32 ♖h3+ and mate next. Strange how an Arabian mate instead becomes an Anestasia"s type mate.|
|Apr-30-17|| ||perfidious: <znprdx....BUT once again (as I have posted on perhaps dozens of occasions) it is NOT always necessary to have ‘seen’ (implying ‘calculated’) a whole line, but rather to be able to ‘envision’ (implying ‘speculated’) the potential for success....>|
Indeed not--it may actually be harmful to try envisioning everything 'to the end'.
<....Kudrin was almost a whole class stronger than Ivanov and probably expected him to become over-zealous.>
When was this ever the case? I got to play Ivanov for the first time when he was at his peak (fall 1982), and there was no-one that much stronger than he--Ivanov remained a formidable force for some time afterwards.
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