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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Apr-09-16 | | ljfyffe: <sachistu> I have a 1897 Paquet newspaper pic of some of the players at Orillia where it's S.Goldstein that I copied down as the initial. |
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| Apr-15-16 | | ljfyffe: St. John Globe: July 16, 1897 lists an <S. Goldstein>for the Orillia tournament. |
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| Apr-15-16 | | ljfyffe: <sachistu>But there is in 1903, a Rice Gambit tourney conducted by the same league; Saunders played. |
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| Apr-16-16 | | ljfyffe: American Chess Magazine: 1897 Orillia CCA
<J.E. Narraway, Ottawa, won the tournament;
E. Saunders, Toronto, second; H. Jackson, Orillia, third prize. S. Goldstein, Toronto, won the consolation prize.> |
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| Apr-18-16 | | ljfyffe: <sachistu> As I figured the Saunders- Wheeler game should be dated 1903:
St. John Globe Chess column, Sept. 11,1903. The game is given with the following comments: <Game played in the Rice Gambit Tournament
of the Pillsbury N.C.C.A between E. Saunders of Toronto and C.H. Wheeler of Chicago.> |
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Apr-18-16
 | | Tabanus: <ljfyffe> White would be Ernest Saunders. In 1901, Edward was already established as a "Jeweller Gold" in London. I'll send a correction slip! |
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Apr-18-16
| | Tabanus: <ljfyffe> Brookly Daily Eagle mentions the participants in 1903, no Wheeler no Saunders. There was a corr. match over 100 boards ca. 1899 (34 games finished by Sept. 1899) between America and Canada, organized by the Pillsbury NCCA and the CCA. Perhaps the game is from that event. |
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Apr-18-16
| | Tabanus: And on 7 Jan. 1900, BDE reports that 66 games have been concluded and that C. H. Wheeler of Chicago has won a game. Without saying who the Canadian opponent was. |
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| Apr-18-16 | | luftforlife: From the Saunders Chess Timeline (part two of two) (Ernest Saunders (kibitz #124)) *Rice Gambit Tourney, Pillsbury Nat'l Correspondence Chess Ass'n , 1903* E. Saunders, Toronto v. C.H. Wheeler, Chicago (result unclear; may be 0-1). Seemingly partial, possibly complete annotated game-score reported in Checkmate (Prescott, Ontario: J.H. Graham), Vol. II, No. 12, Sept. 1903, at 279-80. |
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| Apr-18-16 | | ljfyffe: <Tabanus>The game, under the King's Gambit Rice Gambit site, gives it as a 1903 Toronto-Chicago correspondence game. So Stubbs appears incorrect as far as it being part of the official gambit tournament. He does say it's the same E. Saunders of Toronto that came to Saint John in 1899. The column in which the game appears in the Globe is Sept, 11, 1903. |
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| Apr-18-16 | | luftforlife: <Tab> <ljfyffe>: The description and atrribution of the game pubished in Checkmate matches the game-comment in St. John Globe, Sept. 11, 1903: both sources recite that this game was played in the Rice Gambit Tournament (Checkmate reads "Tourney") of the Pillsbury N.C.C.A. between E. Saunders, of Toronto, and C.H. Wheeler, of Chicago. The final statement in the Checkmate scoreline, after "28 QR - Q1," reads: "At this point Black announced mate in 12 moves, beginning with 28. . . . Kt-B7." |
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| Apr-18-16 | | luftforlife: I'm not sure the following link will be of use to anyone outside the United States, but here's a Google Books link to Checkmate, Vol. II, No. 12, Sept. 1903, at 279: https://books.google.com/books?id=0... |
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| Apr-18-16 | | luftforlife: The score rendered in descriptive notation in Checkmate matches the score rendered in algebraic notation here on <cg>. |
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Apr-19-16
| | Tabanus: Mmm, yes. BDE 12 April 1903 says "150 players have filed their entries for the Rice Gambit correspondence tournament, to be started this month by the Pillsbury National Correspondence Chess Association of Chicago. President Lee W. Parke expects to bring the total up to 200 before play actually begins." Should I change date to 1903? If you think the game was over by 10 September. |
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| Apr-19-16 | | ljfyffe: Certainly fits in with the Rice Gambit NCCA 1903 correspondence games though a site I came upon lists Saunders-Wheeler as 1903 Chicago-Toronto for some reason while others are listed as 1903 NCCA correspondence. |
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| Apr-19-16 | | ljfyffe: Bill Wall lists it as 1903 correspondence. |
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Apr-19-16
| | Tabanus: I changed to 1903 for now.
The moves may have been sent by telephone, rather than by letters, if Wheeler could afford. Saunders certainly could. |
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| Apr-19-16 | | ljfyffe: <Tab>Games done by correspondence other than by mail are usually labelled thusly. Such speculation needs back-up! |
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Apr-19-16
| | Tabanus: <ljfyffe> Can't prove it :) But the distance between the cities is not so great, say 130 days divided by 28 = 4.6 days per move. This should be possible if the letter took no more than two days to reach the opponent, on average. And the opening moves may have been played already or played fast. |
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| Apr-19-16 | | luftforlife: <Tab>: Thanks for that entry; that's the confirmation of the name, nature, and date of the tournament. Based on your discovery; on <ljfyffe> quotation of the game-comments that accompanied the game as published in St. John Globe on September 11, 1903; and on my reference to the Checkmate entry from September 1903 (which likewise features the game with annotation), yes, I would recommend changing the date of this game as it appears on <cg> to 1903. You raise a good point: Checkmate does not expressly give a result, or indicate how the game ended. I believe it ended in 1903 with Saunders's resignation, but I'm not sure. <ljfyffe>: Do the comments to the game from St. John Globe, Sept. 11, 1903, indicate the final score, and when and how the game ended? |
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Apr-19-16
| | Tabanus: The game is also in New York Clipper, 10 Oct. 1903, with a reference to "Checkmate". It is presented as a problem, with diagram after 28.Rad1 (and perhaps the 28...Nf2 was not played), where "Black (C. H. Wheeler) announced mate in twelve moves!" The game also starts on move 9; it says "Play the eight establishing moves". So probably 130 divided by 20 = 6,5 days per move! |
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| Apr-19-16 | | luftforlife: <Tab>: Thanks for that elucidation; the reference to mate in twelve (yikes!) jibes with the final statement in the Checkmate scoreline, noted above, which, after "28 QR - Q1," reads: "At this point Black announced mate in 12 moves, beginning with 28. . . . Kt-B7." I take your point, which is well-considered, about modalities of, and delays in, communication in 1903. |
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| Apr-19-16 | | ljfyffe: <luft> In the St. John Globe column, after 28 Rad1, Black announces mate in 12 after 28...Nf2. |
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| Apr-19-16 | | luftforlife: <ljfyffe>: Thanks for that information. Looks like we're on the same page in that regard. |
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| Apr-21-16 | | ljfyffe: By the way, the pic of E. Saunders I mention
above is from 1898, notthe year earlier. |
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