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Jul-20-05 | | Caissanist: When Portisch, Petrosian, and Tal tied for second place in the Biel interzonal a three way playoff was held, with each player having four games against each of the other two. Here is what Viktor Korchnoi had to say about the result, in an interview he gave to Tim Krabbe after his defection: "Look at what happened betwen Tal and Petrosian in Varese. They played four draws in maybe fifty moves altogether. It's unsporting, it's unfair. I have no words to describe it. But Tal punished himself. Huh? Ah ... you do not understand this. It is because Petrosian is a great force in the Soviet Union. He leads all the politics of the Soviet chess Federation, of the chess press. Everyone has to consider his opinions and desires. Tal submits to him. Even when Portisch was already sure of qualification and it was clear that one Russian had to drop out, Tal did not try to win against Petrosian. Well, he punished himself." "One starts selling his soul by bits and pieces until it's all gone." "You ask me what would have happened to Tal if he just hadn't ... Well, he would have felt it little by little, as I felt it for such a long time." |
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Jun-04-07
 | | Richard Taylor: More possibly Tal was tired - he had a lot of kidney illness. Korchnoi prosteeth too much methinks. Draws are one quite valid way of dealing with match problems. |
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Jun-04-07 | | Benzol: <...Well, he would have felt it little by little, as I felt it for such a long time."> Is Korchnoi talking about his own soul or about Tals with this last sentence. BTW <Richard> how did the last two rounds go and who won the A-grade and the B-grade. Oh and how did Vince do overall? |
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Jun-04-07 | | euripides: I think what Korchnoi means he 'felt' was the repercussions from resisting. Tal didn't feel these repercussions because he didn't resist. But that -for Korchnoi - constitutes selling one's soul. |
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Jun-04-07 | | kellmano: Does Korchnoi annoy anyone else? I find his permanent whinging irksome. OK, he plays good chess, but he's really just a turncoat. |
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Jun-04-07 | | euripides: <he's really just a turncoat.> I remember Norman Tebbitt saying much the same thing about Salman Rushdie. Very edifying. |
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Jun-04-07 | | Tomlinsky: <kellmano: Does Korchnoi annoy anyone else? I find his permanent whinging irksome. OK, he plays good chess, but he's really just a turncoat.>
Not me personally. He's had a few dirty tricks played on him which has made his delivery caustic at times but he has been gracious on many occasions as well (Kasparov wouldn't even have got to play Karpov in '84 having defaulted against Korchnoi if it wasn't for Viktor insisting the match be played). Having devoted his time on this planet to moving bits of wood around a chequered board holding his own, relative to most mortals, against pretty much all opposition including 8 world champions he can say whatever he wants as far as I am concerned. Nah. Viktor Korchnoi may be a grumpy so and so at times but he is sincere, has integrity and will leave this world having fulfilled as much of his dream as he could along with a considerable number of wonderful chess paintings to be passed down the ages as his visible life-work. |
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Jun-04-07
 | | keypusher: <I remember Norman Tebbitt saying much the same thing about Salman Rushdie. Very edifying.> Here's a collection of quotes from the time:
<Roald Dahl <Roald Dahl??> called Rushdie “a dangerous opportunist”; Tory Party chairman Norman Tebbit, “an outstanding villain ... who has insulted the country that protects him and betrayed and reviled those to whom he owes his wealth, his culture, his religion and now his very life.” John Le Carré declared that “absolute free speech is not a God-given right. ... Nobody has a God-given right to insult a great religion.” Alexander Cockburn, by contrast, took up Rushdie's defense but complained that Rushdie managed no outcry on behalf of other victims of censorship and intimidation. Edward Said called The Satanic Verses “the Intifada of the imagination,” while the great Sudanese novelist Tayeb Salih called it “tedious,” a cause célèbre only because Iran had made it so. Despite the violence of the much-publicized rhetoric against Rushdie from a variety of Islamic quarters, many commentators observed that those quarters did, after all, have a point. Gobind Kumar, for example, reminded readers of the “tendency for the Western media to propagate derogatory images of minority and foreign cultures.” Conor Cruise O'Brien was there to oblige him, stating baldly that “Muslim society looks repulsive ... because it is repulsive” and Anthony Burgess weighed in with the claim that “the Koran is no literary masterpiece. The Bible is.”> http://www.dist113.org/dhs/Library/... I've got to read that damned book (The Satanic Verses, that is). |
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Jun-04-07 | | acirce: <Does Korchnoi annoy anyone else?> Yes, he is fairly despicable. I won't speak too much on the subject though as I don't want to let my Swiss sponsors down. (-; I will say that I have very little respect for the excuse that says "oh, but he is such a great player, so let him do what he wants." As for calling Rushdie a turncoat, what's wrong with that? That's one of the nicest things he should be called. |
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Jun-04-07 | | ahmadov: <Does Korchnoi annoy anyone else?> When Karpov was asked how was Korchnoi's attitude to him, he said his attitude depended on what Korchnoi sees in his dream... I think these kinds of unpredictable people are always annoying... |
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Jun-04-07 | | euripides: <key> interesting, thanks. I'm not sure but I think Said may have been praising Rushdie when he talked of the 'intifada of the imagination'. There were other surprising reactions. The English philosopher Michael Dummett wrote a bad and incoherent piece in the Telegraph (the incoherence might have been sub-editing) attacking Rushdie. |
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Dec-08-09 | | Caissanist: I wonder if Tal didn't see how Petrosian, Keres, and Geller made short draws among themselves and took the top three places in the Curacao interzonal. Perhaps he decided that, if he were ever in a situation like that again, he would want to be part of the deal. If he did, it obviously didn't work out. |
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Dec-08-09 | | ughaibu: Perhaps you dont know about Tal and Petrosian in the 1959 candidates. |
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Dec-08-09 | | Petrosianic: Even if he does, he doesn't understand the situation. This is the final game of a 3-way playoff, with 2 players advancing. The scores at this point were: Petrosian: +1-0=6
Portisch: +1-1=6
Tal: +0-1=6
Each player plays 4 games against each other. Petrosian had beaten Portisch in their first game. The last two had been drawn in 11 and 13 moves. Portisch was ignoring Petrosian to focus on Tal, whom he succeeded in beating in their third game. If Tal had won this game, then all three players would have finished at +1-1=6. From Korchnoi's comments that one of the Russians had to drop out, we can infer that in the event of a tie, the spot in the Candidates would have been decided by tiebreak points. From Korchnoi's claim that Tal had something to play for in this game, we can assume that Petrosian would have been the one eliminated on tiebreak, had Tal won this game. Or at least we can assume that that's Korchnoi's claim. I don't see it, personally. The Sonnenborn tiebreaks from the Interzonal were Petrosian: 110.75, Portisch: 108.25, Tal: 107.50. So if they were using Sonnenborn points, as they usually do, Tal would have still been eliminated <even if he had won this game>. If they were using some other tiebreak system, what was it? Korchnoi never said, and Chess Life & Review's otherwise pretty good coverage, never mentioned it either. For the next Candidates series, they did use Sonnenborn. Ribli and Adorjan played a 5 game match to determine a Candidates spot, and when the match ended tied, Adorjan got the spot on Sonnenborn points. Unless I hear something different, I'm assuming that Korchnoi was wrong in thinking that Tal had something to play for in this game. If Korchnoi was right, it comes down to what kind of winning chances, if any, you think Tal has in the final position. Fritz give it 0.45 for White, which isn't hopeless for a must-win game, assuming Tal's health was up for it, or his psyche, coming off a shattering loss to Portisch. |
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Dec-29-09 | | ewan14: The '' Combine '' revisited mentioned in Kasparov's OMGP volume ( Petrosian & Spassky ) In one of his autobiogaphies Korchnoi does not complain about the result of his 1968 match with Spassky , but admits he underestimated Spassky's ( improved ) mental strentgh ( ? ) |
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Dec-29-09 | | Petrosianic: That's interesting, but neither of those claims tells us anything about the tiebreaks used in Varesse. |
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Jun-20-12 | | King Death: < Richard Taylor: More possibly Tal was tired - he had a lot of kidney illness. Korchnoi prosteeth too much methinks...> Maybe Korchnoi wasn't too far off base, Petrosian was a big man in Soviet chess politics until he lost to Korchnoi in their 1977 match. Then he got canned as editor of "64". It was one thing I guess to lose when Korchnoi was still playing for the USSR but bad business when VK was a non person. |
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Jun-20-12 | | Petrosianic: Except that Korchnoi never defected at all, and was actually an undercover agent for the KGB during the late 70's. (Technically that COULD be true, and that's all we need to state it as a fact, right?) |
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Jun-20-12 | | Petrosianic: The most reasonable explanation still seems to be that Tal took an easy draw in this game because he had nothing to play for, and was already eliminated, which is what the tiebreak points seem to suggest. |
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Jun-20-12 | | King Death: < Petrosianic: Except that Korchnoi never defected at all, and was actually an undercover agent for the KGB during the late 70's...> He was until he got turned.
<(Technically that COULD be true, and that's all we need to state it as a fact, right?)> It depends, sometimes we can make it up as we go along. If we did that it would be no different than some posters in these parts. |
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Jun-20-12 | | Petrosianic: <He was until he got turned.> Reminds me of a joke from Get Smart, Again. Something like "We had a mole in their organziation until he got turned." "Into what??" <It depends, sometimes we can make it up as we go along. If we did that it would be no different than some posters in these parts.> Korchnoi was as bad as some of the worst internet guessers on some days. After he defected, he practically came out and said that he thought a Balashov-Polugaevsky game had been thrown. But he gave no reason, and looking at the game, there was no obvious reason for thinking so. I think he was such a Hero when he came West that he could say just about anything without being challenged on it, and sometimes did. You need people to keep you honest or pretty soon you aren't. I'm never comfortable around people that I think won't challenge me on anything. It's a bit creepy. But some people can live no other way. |
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Jun-20-12 | | King Death: <Petrosianic> Some of Korchnoi's sweeping statements remind me a little bit of Fischer and things like "The King's Gambit is busted. It loses by force." Then there's this one from Fischer with White to move:  click for larger viewHere he wrote that Black was better or something like that because White had to commit himself (I'm paraphrasing because I haven't seen this article in probably 40 years). |
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Jun-20-12 | | Petrosianic: With Korchnoi, I think part of it is his need to have strong animosity for whoever he's playing. It seems to help him focus. Fischer is a little different, he was more Pro Fischer than Anti-Everyone Else as such. He had a major objectivity problem in the early 60's. He loses a game against the King's Gambit, and imagines that the King's Gambit loses by force. He loses a tough game to Spassky, then pronounces Spassky one of the 10 Best Players Who Ever Lived. He thought his own games from the Western Open (some against Class players) were better than any games played at the Piatigorsky Cup. He thought Black was better after 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 g6 3. Bg2 Bg7 4. O-O O-O 5. d3. He thought he'd been winning all four of the games he lost to Tal (only in the last one did he ever have any advantage). And so on. And the funny part is that he would say these things and people would just repeat them as gospel. (That one about Tal floated around for years. Jerry Sohl even repeated it as fact in Underhanded Chess, because he thought Fischer ought to know). Keres wrote a pretty kind article to Fischer on how his objectivity problems would harm his future development, which seems pretty reasonable, but also wrong (Fischer became world champion without ever fully solving them). |
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Jun-20-12 | | Petrosianic: <(I'm paraphrasing because I haven't seen this article in probably 40 years).> Here's a .pdf if you want to see it again:
http://www.academicchess.org/images... Chessbase did a joke about it this year for April Fool, in which they claimed that months of computer analysis had showed them that the King's Gambit really does lose by force in every line except 3. Be2 (!!), which draws. |
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Jun-20-12 | | King Death: <Petrosianic> Thanks for posting that, it brings back memories! By the way I saw that April Fools thing from Chessbase on here, it caught some people for sure. |
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