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NN vs Robert Crepeaux
Nice (1923), Nice FRA
Bird Opening: Dutch Variation (A03)  ·  0-1



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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-15-17  nalinw: <al wazir>

11. .. Ng4
12. Rf2

... seems to avoid mate but at the cost of a Rook and more ....

Sep-15-17  ozmikey: Funny how one keeps going back to similar "examples" - I had the fixed idea of connecting the rooks, and only considered 16...Be7+ 17.Nxe7 Ne4+ 18.Kg7 Kxe7 and mate after a couple of checks. Works, but certainly not the quickest!
Sep-15-17  DarthStapler: I was sure it was Nxf3+ Rxf3 (if any other move Qxh2#) Qxh2+ Kf1 Qh1+ Ke2 Qxg2+ then black wins (Rf2 Qxf2+, Ke1 Bg3+ Rxg3 Qxg3+, Kd3 Nf2+). Can anyone explain what's wrong with my reasoning here?
Sep-15-17  AlicesKnight: The Q sacrifice is followed by some nice horseplay and all the work is done by minors (apart from the R supporting the RP). The 'quiet' final move is another good point.
Sep-15-17  SpamIAm: <nalinw>, even that doesn't stop mate. 11...Ng4 12.Rf2 Qh2+ 13.Kf1 Ng3+ 14.Ke1 Qg1(h1)+ 15.Rf1 Qf1# Congrats, <al wazir>. 11...Qh2+ is flashy but deserves a "!?" instead of a straight "!". Your move leads to quicker mate. :)
Sep-15-17  gofer: Well, this one seemed obvious <11 ... Nxf3+> followed by all sorts of possible things, but the things I found were not so great. So after a couple of minutes, I found the mate in seven. Having NN as white helped a lot!

<11 ... Qxh2+>

<12 Kxh2 Nxf3++>

<13 Kh3 Neg5+> (Kh1 Ng3#)

<14 Kg4 h5+>

<15 Kf5 g6+>

<16 Kf6 ...>

click for larger view

Okay, so good so far, but 16 ... Be5+ isn't mate, so we need to find another check which could be Ne4+ or Nh7+, but before we can do that we need to stop the white king's escape route to g7. So instead of the immediate check we complete the mating net.

<16 ... Kf8>
<17 any move! Nh7#>

Much easier than yesterday, because unlike everyone else I missed Qg5 and played Rfd8 instead...

Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: I found the 11...Qxh2+ line, so didn't look any further. Fritzie confirms that <Al Wazir> was right to point out that 11...Nxg4 was quicker. It's mate in 5, compared with the game line's mate in 7.

Returning to the game line, Fritz says that 16...Kf8 is the quickest kill (mate in 2), but black also mates with any of these moves: 16...Rg8, 16...0-0, 16...Be5+ or 16...Be7+.

One particularly grisly line is 16...0-0 17. Ne7+ Bxe7+ 18. Kxe7 f6!

click for larger view

White can't stop Rf7#

As usual, I don't think that any one mating line is better or worse than any other. A win is a win is a win.

Sep-15-17  sorokahdeen: Why does this game start from the same opening (reversed) and use practically the same tactical themes that are found in Lasker vs Thomas (offhand, 1912)?

I'd like to interview NN, who, were he a one-year-old, would now be creeping up on his first century.


Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: I solved this one including all variations which bodes well for a nearly 70 year old codger...

The Ng4 line is quicker but to fail to sacrifice a Queen and deliver mate in an ingenious and clever way is surely mandatory. To play the lame Ng4 is to be...well, it is a pathetic move...

Sep-15-17  5hrsolver: I had 16...Rg8 which also works but is one move longer because of 17.Nc7+ Bc7 followed by 18...Nh7#
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: I used 14. ... f5+ which also leads to mate.
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: White's decisive mistake is 11. Nxd5?, which gives Black the win with 11...Ng5 (mate-in-five,) 11...Qxh2+! (mate-in-seven or 11...Nxf3+ -+ (-6.30 @ 33 depth, Stockfish 8.)

Instead, White can win a pawn and secure the advantage with a simple double attack (Rook Fork) 11. Bxe4 dxe4 12. Rf4 Qe7 13. Nxe4 0-0-0 14. Nxd6+ Qxd6 15. d4 ± (+1.31 @ 35 depth, Stockfish 8.)

Sep-15-17  malt: Got 11...Q:h2+ 12.K:h2 N:f3++ 13.Kh3
(13.Kh1 Ng3#) 13...Neg5+ 14.Kg4 f5+
(15.K:f5 g6+ 16.Kf6 0-0#)
(15.K:f5 g6+ 16.Kg4 h5#)
15...g6+ 16.Kh6 Bf8+ 17.Bg7 Nf7#
Sep-15-17  Kyudaime: Both Ng4 and Qxh2+ are winning lines, no matter what White plays he'll lose.
Premium Chessgames Member
  paulalbert: As some others have noted, immediately reminded me of the famous Edward Lasker vs. Thomas game, but colors reversed, so Qxh2+ seemed a likely candidate.
Sep-15-17  Walter Glattke: 11.-Ng4 (al wazir) 12.Rf2 (nalinw) Bxh2+
13.Kh1 (13.Kf1 Qxf2#) Ng3 same mate as with 12.Re1.
Sep-15-17  minasina: What is daily puzzle <Sep-14-17>?
Sep-15-17  Vollet: Sep-15-17 nalinw: <al wazir>

11. .. Ng4
12. Rf2

... seems to avoid mate but at the cost of a Rook and more ....

but if 12.Rf2 then 12...Bh2+!
if 13.Kh1 Ng3#
if 13.Kf1 Qf2#

Where am I wrong?

Sep-15-17  wtpy: I feel a monkey wrench coming on. This had been a week of easy somewhat predictable, though long, mating patterns. So I predict we need to prepare to get our ointment flied. (I think I have used my quota of Cassandra-like cliches so I can quit now, but mark my words!)
Premium Chessgames Member
  PawnSac: Three candidate moves:
a) ..Nxf3+
b) ..Qxh2+
c) ..Ng4

All three are winning.

a) <11...Nxf3+> 12.Rxf3 Qxh2+ 13.Kf1 Qh1+ 14.Ke2 Qxg2+ 15.Kd3 Nc5+ 16.Kc4 O-O-O and now it seems white should play 17.b4 or 17.Bd4 to create a flight path for the K. He does not have time to chase pawns. His QR is still in the corner, he faces an outside passer, and black is way ahead in development and i can't imagine white surviving much longer if he can't hide his sorely exposed K.

b) <11...Qxh2+> 12.Kxh2 Nxf3+ Kh3 Ne4-g5+ Kg4 h5+ Kf5 g6+ Kf6 Kf8! and black threatens ..Ne4# or Nh7# (mate in 6)

c) <11...Ng4!> and there are mates all over the place. i.e.,

12. Rf2 Bxh2+ 13. Kh1 Nexf2# (or 13.Kf1 Qxf2#)
12. h3 Bh2+ 13. Kh1 Ng3#
12. Bxg4 Qxh2# and so forth. The best white can do is stall with... 12. Nxc7+ Bxc7 13. Be5 Bxe5 14. h3 Bh2+ 15. Kh1 Ng3#

Sep-15-17  bane77: 14...f5+ also leads to quick checkmate (14... f5+ 15. Kxf5 (15. Kh5 g6+ 16. Kh6 Bf8+ 17. Bg7 Nf7#) 15... g6+ 16. Kf6 (16. Kg4 h5#) 16... O-O#).
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: I recalled this position. I couldn't put it down to a particular game. If I saw it it was when I was first studying chess possibly around 1962 or so. I wonder if that was Edward Lasker we had a book by him from the local library and he also played some lively games.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: <bane77: 14...f5+ also leads to quick checkmate (14... f5+ 15. Kxf5 (15. Kh5 g6+ 16. Kh6 Bf8+ 17. Bg7 Nf7#) 15... g6+ 16. Kf6 (16. Kg4 h5#) 16... O-O#).>

I went for this but for some reason I thought 16. ... 0-0 wasn't mate and I had 16. ... Rf8+ (!!) which still ends up as mate so I had this frinal position for example:

click for larger view

I also calculated to this:

click for larger view

Although originally I had thogught 16...0-0 my mind told me there was an escape square.

But at least in my version the King is taken to the opposite side of the board which has an extra aesthetic appeal....

Black to force mate in more than 16 moves is the puzzle I solved!

On my (albeit) free version of Komodo "looks" at the position it goes for Ng4 and lists other moves but it refuses to come up with Qxh2+

But when I make the move it has a forced mate. There is a similar thing with en passant, it wont look at lines with en passant. It will allow it but wont analyse starting with en passant...

________________________________________________- ____

When I look at the final positions above it makes me think of a Heath Robinson rigmarole dreamed up! In the process of getting the King to g8 or h6 I might have lost on time!!

Premium Chessgames Member
  Jonathan Sarfati: <Richard Taylor:> Yes, almost a mirror image of Ed. Lasker vs G A Thomas, 1912

Lasker missed a quicker win with 14.f4+!, just as you found for this game.

Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: I found the line that was actually played. <al wazir>'s 11...Ng4 mates more quickly, but (had I seen both lines) in an actual game I would have gone for the queen sac. Who can resist? <bane77> found the best line, giving the possibility of mating by castling, which as we know is very rare. See AND
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