chessgames.com
Members · Prefs · Laboratory · Collections · Openings · Endgames · Sacrifices · History · Search Kibitzing · Kibitzer's Café · Chessforums · Tournament Index · Players · Kibitzing
Francesco di Castellvi vs Narciso Vinyoles
"Old in Chess" (game of the day Nov-13-2012)
Valencia (1475), Valencia ESP
Scandinavian Defense: Ilundain Variation (B01)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

Annotations by Stockfish (Computer).      [22078 more games annotated by Stockfish]

explore this opening
find similar games more games of Castellvi
PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

TIP: Olga is our default viewer, but we offer other choices as well. You can use a different viewer by selecting it from the pulldown menu below and pressing the "Set" button.

PGN Viewer:  What is this?
For help with this chess viewer, please see the Olga Chess Viewer Quickstart Guide.
PREMIUM MEMBERS CAN REQUEST COMPUTER ANALYSIS [more info]

THIS IS A COMPUTER ANNOTATED SCORE.   [CLICK HERE] FOR ORIGINAL.

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 14 OF 14 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-29-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jonathan Sarfati: <centralfiles: <<Richard Taylor >Did White miss the Ne5 trick when B went to g4?> see karpovas post above about losing the Queen. That would also explain why not Bxf7+ then Ne5+ that would be an illegal move putting the Q en prise> Still strange, because doesn't 20. Qxd7+ also put the Q en prise?
Mar-29-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: Interesting to see the oldest game in any case. Or what may be the oldest.
Mar-30-17  Yigor: Here are evaluations from ChessOK database:

1. e4 (KP, +0.11) d5 (Scandinavian, +0.29) 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qd8 (Ilundain Variation, +0.33) 4. Bc4 Nf6 (+0.37) 5. Nf3 Bg4 (mistake, +1.12 after 6. Ne5) 6. h3 (mistake, +0.33) Bxf3 (+0.48) 7. Qxf3

The sequence of Pawn Structure Classification Codes: 2E -> 2Ed -> 6Ed -> 6Ed1h (pawn height =13)

Apr-01-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jonathan Sarfati: <Richard Taylor:>, yes, oldest known game with modern Q and B moves. What's more, the two players, along with their fellow poet and nobelman Bernat Fenollar who commented on the game, were the probably the ones who invented these rules!
Jun-12-17  schnarre: ...Interesting to go over such an old game!
Jun-20-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  lomez: This might not actually be from 1745. Maybe a few years later.
Jun-20-17  ChessHigherCat: It looks a game played between a king (white) and his court jester (black). Why not 10. ...Rb8 11. Qc6 Rb6, for example? Probably because if black won, it was "Off with his head!".

Lasker's rules cited by <Karpova> are interesting, especially:

2) He who loses the queen, loses the game (surprisingly feminist for the period), and

3) a pawn that reaches the 8th rank can only become a piece which has already been taken (that would avoid a lot of the crazy fumbling around that goes on in blitz games, trying to put tin foil on top of a pawn or something)

Oct-21-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jonathan Sarfati: <ChessHigherCat: (surprisingly feminist for the period),>

But then, maybe not. From the date and place, many chess historians believed that the huge expansion in the power of the queen was a tribute to Queen Isabella of Castile, a powerful queen regnant.

Nov-07-17  MariusDaniel: Great chess game from 15th century!
Sep-21-18  Yigor: The next Scandinavian game in this database: Hanstein - von der Lasa (1839): gid=1266108.
Sep-21-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  Parachessus: <ChessHigherCat> Christian Freeling's brilliant chess variant called "Grand Chess" only allows pawns to promote to captured pieces. So if your queen is still on the board, you can't promote to a queen. Also, in GC pawns can promote on the last TWO ranks. This would mean K+P vs K endings would always be won by the side with the extra pawn.
Sep-22-18  Yigor: 4. Bc4 can be called "Castellvi attack". The main line is 4. d4. The next Scandinavian: Ilundain game: Morphy/Barnes - Staunton/Owen (1858), gid=1242885.
Jul-26-19  Chesgambit: old chess game
Jul-26-19  Chesgambit: King games
Oct-06-19  stridergene: Wow amazing. I am amazed that this game was preserved
Feb-09-20  MordimerChess: So that's the oldest chess game ever recorded. Wow! It was played in Valencia, 1475 AD. It was discovered in 1905 in some manuscript found in archives. And its name was Scachs d'Amor, which means in Catalan language "The Chess Game of Love". Maybe it's the most important chess game in history? ;)

De Castellvi appears as one of the three authors of the "Scachs dŽamor" poem. He was the owner of several towns and advisor in the Aragonese court of King Ferdinand. He was definitely a member of a distinguished Valencian family.

Narcis Vinyoles was a polititian and a writer, he was know of his literacy production at that time. And he was a member of well known lawyers family.

Bernat Fenollar, commentator or arbiter was also member of notable Valencian family. He was a priest, a mathematician, but also a literacy patron and organizer of cultural event. So he was the real soul of the chess group and probably the first author of chess book which disappear later from the history. Manuscript of chess oldest game in the World is everything we have now.

And maybe the level of the players were not so high at that time but it seems like these trio invented the modern rules of chess. That's why I think it deserves the video with some commentary about the story behind: https://youtu.be/AJuU6uqkPwk

Keep in mind that position from miniature matches the position from the game. I really had to do some serious work on that, lol :D

Enjoy!

Feb-10-20  Petrosianic: <it seems like these trio invented the modern rules of chess.>

Why does it seem that way to you? Just because this is the oldest game that has survived doesn't mean it's the first game ever played, nor that these players are the ones who altered the rules of Shatranj into modern chess.

Feb-12-20  MordimerChess: <Just because this is the oldest game that has survived doesn't mean it's the first game ever played>

There is no evidence about any other older game. Also <research on Fenollar proves an important point: The modern game of chess appears in Valencia, towards the end of the XVth century, in a well known circle of poets, literary patrons and printers of books.>

And <Almost all the early works on modern chess are coming from Spain, and they are related in many ways to the chess circle of Valencia during the last part of the 15th century. The origins of modern chess are in Valencia>

And as Fenollar was well known, influencial chess enthusiast and he shows the rules of chess in his books, it's very unlikely that his "chess circle" didn't invent the modern chess of rules (probably without the castling).

Feb-12-20  Petrosianic: <There is no evidence about any other older game.>

Right, as I say, I get that this is the oldest surviving game. I also get that Modern Chess originated in the 15th century, and so this could be the first game. It might even be the first recorded game. But the actual first one ever played? It doesn't even claim that.

It might be hard to determine the actual first game even if we had complete records of every game ever played. No doubt the rules were shuffled around and experimented with a lot as people turned shatranj into chess, so the answer might be somewhat interpretational.

I'm willing to recognize this as the de facto first game, though, since we have no older ones. But I'm not willing to chip in for statues for Castellvi and Vinyoles yet.

Feb-12-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: It might be the first game of modern chess, or the second, or the third....

You get my drift.

Yawn. There are more worthwhile topics of debate.

Feb-12-20  Petrosianic: <Yawn. There are more worthwhile topics of debate.>

On this particular page, probably not. The game itself is no great shakes.

Feb-13-20  MordimerChess: Yeah, let's start from Fenollar's statue. He deserved it the most!
Sep-22-20  login:

Meanwhile in Germany

https://www.unesco.de/sites/default...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lands...

Sep-22-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: This is chessgames game number 1259987.
Sep-30-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: One could easily imagine this game being played today. Not a good game, especially by Black, but shockingly good for the first recorded game. Through White's fifth, the game was a normal, if offbeat, opening. Vinyoles' 5...Bg4 was correct on general principles, but allowed the tactical shot 6.Bxf7+! (the alternative 6.Ne5 is also strong). White overlooked this. Black soon hung his b-pawn and the game went downhill from there. But both players played well above modern beginner standards.
Jump to page #    (enter # from 1 to 14)
search thread:   
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 14 OF 14 ·  Later Kibitzing>

NOTE: Create an account today to post replies and access other powerful features which are available only to registered users. Becoming a member is free, anonymous, and takes less than 1 minute! If you already have a username, then simply login login under your username now to join the discussion.

Please observe our posting guidelines:

  1. No obscene, racist, sexist, or profane language.
  2. No spamming, advertising, duplicate, or gibberish posts.
  3. No vitriolic or systematic personal attacks against other members.
  4. Nothing in violation of United States law.
  5. No cyberstalking or malicious posting of negative or private information (doxing/doxxing) of members.
  6. No trolling.
  7. The use of "sock puppet" accounts to circumvent disciplinary action taken by moderators, create a false impression of consensus or support, or stage conversations, is prohibited.

Please try to maintain a semblance of civility at all times.

Blow the Whistle

See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform a moderator.


NOTE: Please keep all discussion on-topic. This forum is for this specific game only. To discuss chess or this site in general, visit the Kibitzer's Café.

Messages posted by Chessgames members do not necessarily represent the views of Chessgames.com, its employees, or sponsors.
All moderator actions taken are ultimately at the sole discretion of the administration.

This game is type: CLASSICAL. Please report incorrect or missing information by submitting a correction slip to help us improve the quality of our content.

<This page contains Editor Notes. Click here to read them.>

Featured in the Following Game Collections[what is this?]
Oldest Chess game recorded
from History in the Making by chessmoron
Licoorz87's favorite games
by Licoorz87
Quick Games
by Xeeniner
SuperChooch's favorite games
by SuperChooch
Clue #10
from Holiday Present Hunt Solutions: 2017 by Penguincw
Scandinavian
by cayo89
The oldest game in the database (a Scandinavian)
from Classic Openings by RonB52734
Old in Chess
from All-Time Classics by Bubo bubo
classic games
by eqvilibrium
MariusDaniel's favorite games
by MariusDaniel
w21 - oldest game
from Checkmates 18+ by Kasputin
Mighty Queen Mate: 21.Qd8# 1-0
from Checkmate: Checkmate Patterns by Penguincw
The oldest recorded game of chess
from A B C Players of Yesteryear by fredthebear
The first scandinavian
from Openings used for the first time by BaranDuin
BobgJ's favorite games
by BobgJ
This is the oldest game recorded here
from Old and beautiful games by Halit4
rajat21's favorite games
by rajat21
November 12: Old in Chess
from Game of the Day 2012 by Phony Benoni
Game 10
from Golden Treasury of Chess (Wellmuth/Horowitz) by Qindarka

Home | About | Login | Logout | F.A.Q. | Profile | Preferences | Premium Membership | Kibitzer's Café | Biographer's Bistro | New Kibitzing | Chessforums | Tournament Index | Player Directory | Notable Games | World Chess Championships | Opening Explorer | Guess the Move | Game Collections | ChessBookie Game | Chessgames Challenge | Store | Privacy Notice | Contact Us

Copyright 2001-2020, Chessgames Services LLC