Emanuel Lasker vs Jose Raul Capablanca (1936)

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Emanuel Lasker vs Jose Raul Capablanca
Moscow (1936), Moscow URS, rd 15, Jun-03
Sicilian Defense: Classical Variation (B58) · 0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

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Given 32 times; par: 101 [what's this?]

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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 4 · Later Kibitzing>
Oct-27-06		paladin at large: <who> You got all of them (5, including Lasker). <JamesDemery> <It seems to be Blacks most effective response to 1.e4.> Capa was probably the greatest player of the Ruy of all time, losing no serious games with white, and only one with black. He also never lost with the Caro Kann, so he had no reason to have to go with the Sicilian in a big way. He apparently only turned to it to reduce predictability.

Oct-27-06		Plato: <paladin at large> This is true, although he didn't often play the Caro-Kann either -- only 11 serious games according to my ChessBase database. Seems like he rarely deviated from 1...e5.

Nov-20-06		slomarko: nobody played the sicialian in 1936

Nov-20-06		RookFile: The Caro-Kann is a perfectly good opening to use for winning purposes. Either in 1936 or 2006. In Capa's hands it was lethal.

Nov-20-06		slomarko: <RookFile: The Caro-Kann is a perfectly good opening to use for winning purposes.> only it is not. Caro-Kann has a well known reputation for being drawish

Nov-20-06		Karpova: <slomarko: <RookFile: The Caro-Kann is a perfectly good opening to use for winning purposes.> only it is not. Caro-Kann has a well known reputation for being drawish> The Caro-Kann is not as agressive as the Sicilian in which the fight for the centre takes place immediately. Caro-Kann is simply not as risky but still good if you want to win - you just have to know how to do that. And the superior player will always find a way - just have a look at some games from Capablanca, Karpov, etc.

Nov-20-06		slomarko: <And the superior player will always find a way - just have a look at some games from Capablanca, Karpov, etc.> Capa and Karpov used Caro-Kann as a way to avoid the opening battle and outplayed the oponents later. of course you can play for win with Caro-Kann but then you can play for a win with every opening.

Nov-20-06		Karpova: <you can play for a win with every opening> True. If you face tough opposition it's hard to outplay the opponent in the opening. Which opening to choose depends on the middlegame position you want to reach - if you prefer a tactical fight or a rather subtle positional play.

Nov-20-06		Wolfgang01: <CapablancaFan><positionalgenius> Do you really believe, Capablanca could have surprized such a genius like Lasker? Ok, Lasker lost a game of chess. What did it matter to him, at that time he was 68!! years old. Capa is 20 years younger than „old chief“. Lasker had a bad day, that's all.

Nov-20-06		RookFile: <slomarko: only it is not. Caro-Kann has a well known reputation for being drawish> Somebody should explain this to Karpov - that all those wins he got with black with this were lucky.

Nov-20-06		Karpova: <Wolfgang01: Lasker had a bad day, that's all.> Lasker had most of his bad days when facing Capablanca... What a coincidene!

Nov-20-06		Wolfgang01: <slomarko>Wrong and nonsense! Capablanca and many others did!!

Nov-20-06		slomarko: <RookFile: <slomarko: only it is not. Caro-Kann has a well known reputation for being drawish> Somebody should explain this to Karpov - that all those wins he got with black with this were lucky.> read again what i wrote before posting nonsense please.

Nov-20-06		RookFile: <slomarko: Capa and Karpov used Caro-Kann as a way to avoid the opening battle and outplayed the oponents later. of course you can play for win with Caro-Kann but then you can play for a win with every opening.> I see. Is there some opening black can play that secures him a win in 16 moves? Take the Sicilian for example - you realize that by far, most Sicilian wins for black involve black grinding white down in the endgame? It's not even close.

Nov-20-06		slomarko: have you ever replayed a Fischer or a Kasparov game?

Nov-20-06		Karpova: Kasparov's wins in 16 moves or less when playing the black pieces according to this database: E Magerramov vs Kasparov, 1979 E Magerramov vs Kasparov, 1982 Korchnoi vs Kasparov, 1983 Huebner vs Kasparov, 1992 Openings: Queen's Pawn Game King's Indian Queen's Gambit Declined Queen's Gambit Declined Semi-Slav

Nov-20-06		Wolfgang01: <Karpova>Lasker was 27 years world-champion and had mostly better tournement-rankings, when he and Capa met in the tournements. No matter what the personal result says.

Nov-21-06		RookFile: Karpova: I don't think that Korchnoi vs. Kasparov game is a real game. Chessgames seems to acknowledge that it isn't, I'm surprised they didn't get rid of it.

Nov-21-06		RookFile: <slomarko: have you ever replayed a Fischer or a Kasparov game?> Sure. And I'm here to say that black's compensation for playing the Sicilian is, if white doesn't crush him in the middlegame, black often wins the endgame. Not so much different than playing the Caro-Kann, if you use it to try to win, instead of draw, now is it?

Nov-21-06		RookFile: <Karpova: Lasker had most of his bad days when facing Capablanca... What a coincidene!> Lasker was past his prime in most of these games. If you exclude Capa's +4 against Lasker from the 1921 World Championship, the two men actually played each other even. This 1936 win by Capa was actually revenge for this Lasker victory the year before: Lasker vs Capablanca, 1935

Nov-21-06		whatthefat: <RookFile> The Sicilian (in general) certainly has a sharper reputation than the Caro Kann, so I decided to test that using the database. Here are White / Draw / Black scoring probabilities for all games in the database since 1995: SICILIAN: Games of 40 moves or less: 0.35 / 0.36 / 0.29 Games of more than 40 moves: 0.36 / 0.31 / 0.33 CARO-KANN: Games of 40 moves or less: 0.34 / 0.42 / 0.23 Games of more than 40 moves: 0.36 / 0.33 / 0.31 In both cases, if black lasts into a longer game, he has essentially equalized, which will partly (though not entirely - see <Note> below) be a selection effect, i.e., to last this long, black generally has to have equalized anyway. Most interesting is that white's chances are more or less the same across the board, with the ratio of draw:black changing. The Caro-Kann is more drawish - agreeing with reputation - and in games of less than 40 moves, black scores much better in the Sicilian than in the Caro-Kann. The statement <black's compensation is, if white doesn't crush him in the middlegame, black often wins the endgame> seems to more aptly apply to the Caro-Kann, since in the Sicilian black is fighting from the beginning. <Note>: Example of popular openings where black has not equalized in games of >40 moves are the King's Indian Defence (0.44 / 0.30 / 0.26), the Queen's Gambit Declined (0.40 / 0.35 / 0.24), the Queen's Gambit Accepted (0.37 / 0.39 / 0.24), and the Grunfeld (0.37 / 0.36 / 0.27). This may even be a useful criterion for classifying openings, i.e., does black equalize (within a given margin) for games >40 moves.

Nov-21-06		keypusher: <whatthefat> Thanks for interesting quantitative analysis. The figure for the King's Indian accords with the perception that Black has a long term disadvantage because of his bad bishop. Can you separate out Slavs from QGs? It would be interesting if the statistics bore out the modern preference for the Queen's Indian and Slav over the QGD, King's Indian and Gruenfeld. The figures you post also help explain the popularity of 1. d4.

Nov-21-06		Karpova: Thanks, <whatthefat>! <SICILIAN: Games of 40 moves or less: 0.35 / 0.36 / 0.29 Games of more than 40 moves: 0.36 / 0.31 / 0.33 CARO-KANN: Games of 40 moves or less: 0.34 / 0.42 / 0.23 Games of more than 40 moves: 0.36 / 0.33 / 0.31> Minor differences at best and <RookFile> was proven right - black's chances in either opening increase during longer games.

Nov-21-06		RookFile: Well, a lot of times, in the Sicilian, black plain old gets butchered. You need to be a bit of a nut to play half of those lines anyway, and one slip up, and you're dead. But, you usually get long range compensation, something like a central pawn majority, that manifests itself somewhere down the road.

Nov-21-06		keypusher: <<RookFile> was proven right - black's chances in either opening increase during longer games> Has anyone ever disputed that? <Minor differences at best> Black has a 6% higher winning percentage in games under 40 moves and 2% higher in games over 40 moves with the Sicilian over the Caro-Kann. Those strike me as quite significant differences. Especially the first. To put it in baseball terms, is there a significant difference between a .230 batting average and a .290 batting average? Probably the people playing the Sicilian are stronger than the people playing the Caro-Kann on average, which accounts for some portion -- maybe almost all -- of the difference.

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