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Hans Lindehn vs Wilhelm Steinitz
London (1864)
Danish Gambit: General (C21)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-16-14  gofer: <patzer2:> What does Fritz 12 say should happen after <21 Qg5+>???
Mar-16-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Penguincw: My first thought was 16.Bxg7, trying to mate on h7, but that would fail because 1)The rook can be captured and 2)There is no mate on h7. :|
Mar-16-14  stacase: <hoodrobin said They played with no comps, didn't they?> "Comps" is what, one of those down under terms or high level Chess lingo?

I would have done 24Rd1+ instead of Qxc5. So that's 5 moves of insanity that a patzer like me saw rather easily.

I'm pretty much a patzer. I will be 70 this year and at one time in the early '90s I played a few tournaments achieving a rating of 1400. These days I rarely play anyone. I look at this puzzle once a day, and I usually get Monday & Tuesday. The rest of the week not so good. But Sunday? One other time over the last several years did I get Sunday's right.

Sometimes you just see it, luck I guess, but I thought today was rather straight forward. Not that I saw all the way to move 23 before I clicked on #18 but I thought the line was straight forward all the way through. Played itself so to speak. Maybe someone wants to comment on 24 Rd1 and how that would have turned out.

Mar-16-14  stacase: After some 20/20 hindsight, I see why 24 Rd1 loses the momentum.
Mar-16-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: <gofer> Here's the Fritz 12 analysis for 21. Qg5+ and 21. Bxe6 on my dual core 2.1 GHZ laptop at 20/50 depth:

Hans Lindehn - Wilhelm Steinitz, London 1864


click for larger view

Analysis by Fritz 12:

1. (2.41): 21.Qg5+ f6 22.Rh7+ Kd8 23.Qd2 Bxc4 24.Nxc5 Rf7 25.Nxb7+ Rxb7 26.Rxb7 Qc6 27.Rg7 Nf8 28.Rd1 Rb8 29.Qxd6+ Qxd6 30.Rxd6+ Ke8 31.h4

2. (1.33): 21.Bxe6 fxe6 22.Qg5+ Kd7 23.Nxc5+ Kc6 24.Rh6 Rf5 25.Qxg6 Qxg6 26.Rxg6 Rxc5 27.Rxe6 Rxc3 28.Rd1 Rd8 29.h4 Rc5 30.g4 Rc4 31.f3

Mar-16-14  zakkzheng: Shredder dd actually on move 13. for white indicates that white is conpletly winning after Bf6!!
Mar-16-14  Patriot: Material is even. Black threatens 18...Nxh4.

18.Bxg7 is really the only move I'm considering. I would probably play this move and hope for the best in a game, because I spent a lot of time trying to work out details without getting anywhere. There are so many candidates. For example after 18...Kxg7 19.Qh6+, 19.Qh7+, 19.Qg5, 19.Ne4. And then Bxe6 could be played within some of those candidates at a certain point or Rf4+ or Ne4+. I even thought about 19.Qh6+ Kf6 20.Qg5+ Kxg5 21.Ne4+ but I don't think that works.

Anyway, I spent too much time going in circles on this one. But, 18.Bxg7 looks like the only move.

Mar-16-14  Nick46: Déja vu, 1862?
Mar-16-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Mating Net: I agree with <Patriot><18.Bxg7 is really the only move I'm considering. I would probably play this move and hope for the best in a game,>

White threatens mate in one so the Bishop must be captured. Afterwards, we have a good ole fashioned King hunt on our hands, what fun!

Mar-16-14  Patriot: It seems to me that if you reach this position OTB, 18.Bxg7 must be played and is no time to think about what happens after that. A better time to really think would have been move 16. Move 18 is already in the middle of the fight! And after 18...Kxg7, this is another place to really think.

It's kind of funny because I spent a lot of time on this as a puzzle and I'm sure many of you did as well, while the player probably played 18.Bxg7 almost instantly and then slowed down after that.

It's a good visualization exercise and that is helpful. But it's also good to train yourself when it's necessary to go into long thinks vs. play a move and figure more out as moves are played. Knowing when and when not to calculate is key.

Mar-16-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: <zakkzheng: Shredder dd actually on move 13. for white indicates that white is conpletly winning after Bf6!!>

Fascinating position with the Computer move 13. Bf6!! (diagram below).


click for larger view

After 13. Bf6 gxf6 14. exf6 Qe5 15. Qh6 (diagram below)


click for larger view

Black must surrender the Queen to avoid a quick mate (e.g. 15...Qxf6 16. Qxf6 ).

Putting up more resistance, but still coming up short, is 13. Bf6 Nxe5 14. Qg5 Ng6 (diagram below).


click for larger view

15. Bxg7! d5 (15... Kxg7 16. Nh5+ Kg8 17. Rae1 ) 16. Bxd5 Qd8 17. Qh6 Qh4 18. Nh5 (diagram below)


click for larger view

Here, once again, Black must surrender the Queen to delay mate (e.g. 18...Qxh5 19. Qxh5 )

Mar-16-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  patfoley: 18 Ne4 wins perhaps a little more easily than Bg7
Mar-16-14  LIFE Master AJ: POTD / Sunday; March 16th, 2014.


click for larger view

(White to play and make his 18th move.)

This looks hard, but it is not.

The first move is rather obvious, 18.BxP/g7!

The Rook (on h4) is immune, because 18...Nxh4??; is simply answered by 19.Qh8#.

So 18...KxB/g7▢ appears to be really the only move that Black can play.

Now White has 19.Qh6+!, when the Black King is forced to f6, as 19...Kg8?; 20.Qh7#, ends Black's suffering.

Now - if I was playing the White pieces - I would play <(after 19...♔f6▢;)> 20.Re1, when all of White's piece are on great squares.

I did not see the end of the attack, but (IMO) Black faces an impossible task ... defending this position is going to be exceedingly difficult.

Mar-16-14  1stboard: Wow, Steinitz loses , how rare is that.

To quote Irving Chernev , this was not a genuine Steinitz ....

Mar-16-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Mating Net: Three positional factors that make 18.Bxg7 a <sac first and ask questions later move:>

1. White's King is safe, no chance for a counterattack.

2. Black's Queen can't interpose.

3. The Black f pawn is still at home, this means no Black piece can come to the rescue on the 7th rank.

Mar-16-14  Conrad93: Bxg7 is a pseudo-sacrifice. Black is either going to (a) gain material back or (b) mate the king.

Everything is forced, so there is no real sacrifice.

Mar-16-14  abuzic: <patzer2: Fascinating position with the Computer move 13. Bf6!!.

After 13. Bf6 gxf6 14. exf6 Qe5 15. Qh6>

Beautiful move 13.Bf6!!,

if 18...gxf6 <14.Bd3!!> f5 15.Qg5+ Kh8 16.Qf6+ Kg8 17.Nxf5 Bxf5 18.Qxf5 followed by Qh7#.

Mar-16-14  BxChess: I looked at 18. Bxg7, but was unsatisfied that the ensueing king hunt led to a clear win for white. So instead I settled on 18. Bd3. I couldn't see any defence for Black, but maybe I missed some. Having seen the game line and the various comments, I still like 18. Bd3.
Mar-16-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: The material is identical.

Black threatens Nxh4 and Bxc4.

An idea which fixes both threats and continues the attack is 18.Bxg7 Kxg7 (18... Nxh4 19.Qh8#; 18... Bxc4 19.Qh7#; 18... f5(6) 19.Qh7+ Kf7 20.Bh8#) 19.Qh6+ Kf6 (19... Kg8 20.Qh7#) 20.Ne4+:

A) 20... Ke7 21.Qg5+ f6 (21... Kd7 22.Nf6+ and 23.Nxe8) 22.Rh7+

A.1) 22... Rf7 23.Qxf6+

A.1.a) 23... Kd7 24.Bxe6+ Qxe6 25.Rxf7+ Ne7 26.Nxc5+ dxc5 27.Rd1+ wins.

A.1.b) 23... Kf8 24.Rxf7+ Bxf7 (24... Qxf7 25.Qxe6 + - [2P]) 25.Ng5 with the double threat 26.Ne6+ and 26.B(N)xf7 looks winning.

A.2) 22... Bf7 23.Qxf6+ Kd7 24.Bb5+ wins.

A.3) 22... Qf7 23.Qxf6+ followed by 24.Rxf7 seems to win.

A.4) 22... Kd8 23.Nxf6 again seems to win.

B) 20... Ke5 21.Qg7+ f6 (21... Kf5 22.Qf6#) 22.Nxc5

B.1) 22... Nxh4 23.Qg3+ Kf5 24.Bd3#.

B.2) 22... dxc5 23.Qc7+ Kf5 24.Bd3+ Kg5 25.Qg3#.

B.3) 22... Bxc4 23.Re4+ Kd5 24.Rxe8 Raxe8 25.Qxg6 (or 25.Nd7) + - [Q+P vs R+B].

C) 20... Kf5 21.Qg5#.

Mar-17-14  LIFE Master AJ: OK, I guess I blew it, Ne4+ was the better move I guess ...
Mar-17-14  OldTimr: 13.Bf6!! Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker!
Mar-21-14  LIFE Master AJ: Haha. A reader/fan e-mailed me.

He said Houdini liked my move, (Re1, not what was played in the game.); see my solution, a few posts back.

Feb-23-18  oolalimk1: chrisowen has posted 6257 times. That's a lot of gibberish !.
Feb-23-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  moronovich: <oolalimk1: chrisowen has posted 6257 times. That's a lot of gibberish !>

But that is nothing compared to the Rogoff page :)

Actually <chrisowen> has solved chess. Now he is looking for a language to explain it.

Apr-11-19  RookFile: It's funny, it seems that 12. Bd3 is crushing, but seems to have gone unnoticed.
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