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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Aug-23-12 | | pawn to QB4: Hugh W Murphy is my guess on this one: <Perhaps the biggest unanswered question about this game: Was White played by D Murphy or H Murphy>. Hugh Murphy of Hackney in London, still playing at 2200+. |
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Aug-23-12
 | | chrisowen: Line bingo dog in dig 13.nb5 queen cant take since time immemorial bodens mate applies a7+ kingd7 and bb5#. |
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Aug-23-12
| | chrisowen: So whats up among queen in ar good a4 gets trapped by b3 yes this f4 c4 risk little cross quite devious king has no room for maneovrings in go ok it a4 in might also rc1, |
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| Aug-23-12 | | James D Flynn: Black is a P up but his K is exposed. He now threatens dxc4 so White must take drastic action. Candidates Nxd5 and Nb5.
13. Nxd5 Qxd2 14.Rxd2 Nxd5 15.Bxd5 Nxf4 16.Bxb7+(not16.Rc1+ Kb8(not Kd7 17.Bxf7+ Nd5 18.Rxd5#) 17.Rc2 Nxd5 and Black wins) Kxb7 17.Rxd8 and Black emerges with 2 pieces for a R and a difficult endgame follows.
13.Nb5 Qa4(not Qxd2 14.Nxa7+ Kd7 15.Bb5#)14.b3 Qa6 15.Nd6+ Rxd6 (if Qxd6 16.Bxd6 Rxd6 17.Bb5 e5 18.Qc3+ Kb1 19.Rc1 a6 20.Qc8+ Ka2 21.Rc7 Rb6 22.Bxa6 Kxa6 23.Qa8+ Kb5 24.a4+ Kb4 25,Rxb7 Bc5 26.Qa6 Rxb7 27.Qxb7+ Kc3 28.Rc1+ Kd4 29.Rd1+ Kc3 30.Qb5 e4 31.Qxc5+ Kxb3 32.Qb5+ Kc3 Ka2 and mate by Qb3# next.) 15.Bxa6 Rxa6 16.Rc1+ Rc6 17.Rxc6+ bxc6 18.Be3 White has a Q for 2Ns, the Black a pawn will no fall and White will win the endgame with his Q and Q-side passed pawns. |
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| Aug-23-12 | | PinnedPiece: In the final position there is only ...Kd8. After which, 17.QxQf4, followed by whatever white tries, mate in one or two more moves. If 17...Nxf4, 18.Nc7++
If 17...Nd5, 18.Qf7++
If 17...Rd7, 18.Rc8+ etc. |
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| Aug-23-12 | | morfishine: <Abdel Irada> Thanks for looking! Tenuous is an understatement! The sad part from my point of view is I had a very similar position in a 5-min game and immediately saw <Bc7> with my knight on <b5>. Very elementary. Today, for some reason, I didn't, and it really should've jumped right off the page. My pattern-recognition files must've been on vacation :) |
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| Aug-23-12 | | Tiggler: Gotta <LoveThatJoker> <Here, Stockfish confirms my assessment that White is winning by saying that at a Depth of 26, White is up by (+2.66) in the position.> So, after six or seven moves, and a further 26-ply search, White's position is significantly worse than it was to begin with. Hard to call that a winning line! |
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| Aug-23-12 | | Creg: <PinnedPiece> White has a more direct line after 17...Ke8 18.Qxd8+ Kxd8 19.Rc8 mate |
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Aug-23-12
 | | LoveThatJoker: <Tiggler> Corrections on your post: A) 13. Nb5! Qa4 14. b3 Qa6 15. Nd6+ Qxd6 16. Bxd6 dxc4 17. Qc3 exd6 18. Qxc4+ Kb8 19. Rc1 Be7 20. Qc7+ Ka8 21. Rxe7 is exactly 8 moves. Not, as you said, 6 or 7. B) I didn't need to fire-up Stockfish to label the position as winning in my solution post. I stated there that it was winning and it is only after a fellow kibitzer commenced investigating my line with an antiquated engine that I brought out Stockfish - which confirmed my original assessment. C) Your statement that <White's position is significantly worse than it was to begin with> proves that you have no reasonable idea what you are talking about: It is clear that at the start of the puzzle, White is down a pawn (and furthermore he has a double pawn on the Kingside). My continuation gives White a material advantage after it is all said and done; and as per my link to the position on Crafty, I have proven that the position can be won for White. You are most welcome,
LTJ |
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| Aug-23-12 | | tivrfoa: hey folks, forget the puzzle. Discuss why not 8. ... Nxf4 =D |
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| Aug-23-12 | | QueenMe: As usual, <Life Master AJ> and I have very similar perspectives: the "correct" solution to this puzzle beyond 13) ♘b5 depends entirely on how Black chooses to respond. I concede that in a real OTB game that if Black responded with 13) ... ♕a4, I would likely have "succumbed" to 14) b3, and congratulated myself on securing the Black queen. Likewise, Black would have likely resigned in a real OTB game, unless he were the type that always hangs on and hopes for an equalizing blunder in the end game. |
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| Aug-23-12 | | thegoldenband: <tivrfoa: hey folks, forget the puzzle. Discuss why not 8. ... Nxf4 =D> 9. Bb5+ c6 10. dxc6 is crushing, since after 10...Qxd1+ 11. Rxd1, White is threatening both mate and c6xb7xa8=Q. 10...a6 and most "neutral" moves fail to 11. c7+, and 10...Nxg2+ 11. Kf1 doesn't seem to change anything. Pretty sure Black's goose is plucked, gutted, and cooked here. |
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| Aug-23-12 | | Abdel Irada: <eblunt>: When I say that 14. b3 traps the queen, I mean that the queen has no safe retreat square. After 14. ...♕a6; 15. ♘d6† wins queen for two minor pieces. However, as I noted in a previous post, you are correct to say that 14. ♖c1! is a far better choice. When I looked at the problem the first time, I dismissed 13. ...♕a4 with a cursory examination because of 14. b3?!, spending most of my time and effort on the stronger-looking 13. ...♕b6. Had I examined the line more deeply, I would have seen the point of 14. ♖c1: If 14. ...dxc4; 15. ♖xc4†! shatters Black's position since he can't recapture on c4 without allowing mate. |
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| Aug-23-12 | | Abdel Irada: <morfishine>: All of which proves that more time doesn't necessarily produce a better move. Some of my best games (with inspired tactics on both sides) have occurred in blitz. For example, I'll never forget the day when, in Santa Cruz, a hulking loudmouth from LA named Frank (rated about 2250) showed up and started discomfiting all the local players. Gjon Feinstein, Cliff Hart and Mike Splane had already been summarily thrashed off the board by the time I arrived. For whatever reason, inspiration visited me in my first game — and it set the tone thereafter. Noting that Frank's queen was undefended on c7 and his queen's rook trapped and undefended on a8, I crossed my fingers and stepped into perhaps the most speculative attack I've ever played: I started with an exchange sac on f6, followed up with a line-clearing push g4-g5, and sacced a bishop on h7. Black looked as though he might survive, but the voice spoke within me again, and I sacced my other bishop on g7. Three moves later, I forked him with ♘d5† in a position in which his king had no retreat square except e8, then picked off the queen with check, forking king and rook and forcing resignation. Did I calculate all of this? Could I have, given five hours instead of five minutes? No. This was intuition, inspiration, call it what you will, and simply because it was blitz, and nothing but pride rode on the outcome, I could heed it and silence Frank's jibes. In tournament chess, on the other hand....
My specialty appears to be calculating several possible lines, ruling one out because it obviously loses, moving on to look at several others, and then finally playing the line I'd ruled out. The lesson? If there is one, it's that sometimes the idea that first suggests itself really is best. (Although it would be suicide to count on it when it matters.) |
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| Aug-23-12 | | Moonwalker: Missed it by a country mile! Considered Nb5 but dismissed it as not forcing enough :/ |
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| Aug-23-12 | | QueenMe: <Oxspawn>: Your comments had me in stitches. Almost fell out of my chair. Too bad the Java dilemma lingers. I've jeered it for years. Takes 40-50 seconds to load every time on my 500Mhz machine (OK, that's a slow machine by today's standards, but exactly where is half a BILLION instructions EVERY SECOND going?). For 40-50 SECONDS? Clearly a 7th version only testifies to them merely having gotten it wrong at least 6 times already. |
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| Aug-24-12 | | Oxspawn: <QueenMe> Thanks for your moral support. But any suggestions as to what I can do? |
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Aug-24-12
 | | perfidious: <Joker> Counting from White's thirteenth to the end of the line you cite at the twenty-first inclusive is nine moves, not eight (since you seem in the business of hammering others on the most minor points). Please be a little more pompous if at all possible. Oh, that's right, I'm one of the unwashed masses who's on ignore, having had the temerity to cause offence in some way, so you won't read this. |
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Aug-24-12
| | LoveThatJoker: <perfidious> You are not on my ignore list. Obviously (inclusive) from 13. Nb5! it is nine moves. I was referring to 8 moves from where my line deviated from the game continuation - which seems to be what is contentious for <tiggler>. I'm not being pompous. Just correcting a fellow kibitzer on his erroneous statment of facts. LTJ |
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| Aug-25-12 | | Infohunter: <tivrfoa: hey folks, forget the puzzle. Discuss why not 8. ... Nxf4 =D> Because of 9.Bb5+! This is a situation similar to Mieses vs J V Ohquist, 1895, only without the pseudosacrifice of White's Queen. In addition to the analysis given by <thegoldenband> above there are two game examples to the point to be found at http://www.chesslive.de./ which are not in the <cg> database, probably because of this site's quality standards. After 9...c6 10.dxc6 we have: A) 10...e5 11.cxb7+ Ke7 12.bxa8=Q 1-0 Dieter Hilgert vs. Jason Feng, IECG email 1999. B) 10...Nxg2+ 11.Kf1 a6 12.c7+ axb5 cxd8=Q+ Rxd8 14.Qb3 Nf4 15.Qxb5+ Rd7 16.Rd1 Nf6 17.Ne4 N4h5 18.Nc5 b6 19.Nxd7 1-0 Boris Mankin vs. Ivan Solomyanikov, Herceg Novi 2008. I hope this helps to answer your question as to why Black did not play 8...Nxf4. |
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| Aug-25-12 | | morfishine: <Abdel Irada> On your comment <The lesson? If there is one, it's that sometimes the idea that first suggests itself really is best> Absolutely! Of course, the operative word being 'sometimes'. So even if one is primarily an intuitive player, one must always check that line and look for other stronger moves. As was once said "If you see a good move, don't play it: there may be a better one"...or something like that :) |
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Aug-25-12
| | perfidious: < Abdel Irada: ....In tournament chess, on the other hand.... My specialty appears to be calculating several possible lines, ruling one out because it obviously loses, moving on to look at several others, and then finally playing the line I'd ruled out....> A story you may enjoy forms a recent post on <FSR>'s page: < perfidious: Here's a gem from my playing days. It's a middle round at the 1988 US Open and I'm in a difficult position against a player ~2100. After using a bunch of time on my preliminary analysis and concluding that one line was clearly losing, it was on to other variations, none of which offered any satisfaction, but were relatively better. Trouble was, after rejecting all these lines, I wound up playing the line I'd initially assessed as losing. Didn't take long for my opponent to find it and put me away. Talk about feeling like an idiot!> |
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| Aug-25-12 | | tivrfoa: Thanks a lot <thegoldenband> and <Infohunter>!!!
9. ♗b5+ is really crushing. =D |
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Mar-05-13
 | | FSR: I've won some very crunchy blitz games after 8.Bxc4. For a similar theme, see E Sollano vs F Rhine, 1977. |
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Sep-19-22
| | FSR: <Infohunter: <tivrfoa: hey folks, forget the puzzle. Discuss why not 8. ... Nxf4 =D> Because of 9.Bb5+!>
Or 9.Qa4+! See F Rhine vs NN, 2022 and my comment there. |
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Kibitzing
sac: 15.Bxd5