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Teimour Radjabov vs Vasyl Ivanchuk
World Championship Candidates (2013), London ENG, rd 2, Mar-16
Dutch Defense: Leningrad. Warsaw Variation (A88)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 8 OF 9 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-17-13  kellmano: Even if he'd played 33......g4 he'd have lost on time. It is not just a difficult move to spot but the follow up is very tough too.

Here is a vid from <kingscrucher> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnJV...

<Garech> the commentators were cranky all day with someone (or some people) in the studio. I don't know the details but you could often see them getting irritated.

Mar-17-13  Fanques Fair: Wasn´t 12-..., Re8 far better than the move played 12-..., Rf7 ? ???
Mar-17-13  Garech: <kellmano> - yeah, it's such a laugh!

By the way, if Ivanchuk flagged, how come he played the last move of the game? Surely that's not possible?

-Garech

Mar-17-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <Garech: By the way, if Ivanchuk flagged, how come he played the last move of the game?>

I've been wondering that all day.

Mar-18-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <OCF> No doubt he made the move on the board, but was unable to stop his clock before the flag fell.

It's an interesting logical question whether such a move should be part of the official score. Since a move is not complete until the clock is stopped, did he actually make it?

Personally, I think it should be part of the record. After all, had it been been checkmate the move would have counted even if the clock was not stopped in time.

Mar-18-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WannaBe: I think these digi-boards record the moves, but does not know 'time'. Hence the board recognized a move was made but unable to distinguish that time had expired.

Just like the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing, in a manner of speaking.

Mar-18-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <PB: No doubt he made the move on the board, but was unable to stop his clock before the flag fell. It's an interesting logical question whether such a move should be part of the official score. Since a move is not complete until the clock is stopped, did he actually make it?

Personally, I think it should be part of the record. After all, had it been been checkmate the move would have counted even if the clock was not stopped in time.>

<PB> I think it should not be part of the record. And I've always felt the idea of checkmate "immediately" ending the game is against the spirit of the game. I can hypothetically win a game when I don't complete a move! I see no reason that a checkmate should be exempt from the dictates of every other move made in a game, that is, a move isn't made if I don't hit the clock before my time is expired.

Mar-18-13  notyetagm: Radjabov vs Ivanchuk, 2013

21 ♗d6xe5!

Mar-18-13  Shams: <OCF> I agree.
Mar-23-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  al wazir: Once again I got the first move right but didn't work out the continuation (and <CG> didn't either).
Mar-23-14  diagonalley: presumably a machine would pick 33.... P-N5 too? ...and with the winning continuation
Mar-23-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: <[I] didn't work out the continuation (and <CG> didn't either).> Quite right; the assertion that 33...g4!! draws is based on computer analysis and "good authority" — not any analysis we've done ourselves.

As kibitzers analyze this very subtle position today we hope to supply more moves of the critical variation.

Mar-23-14  paramount: The puzzle is good. I failed this day, i think about Bxb6. I was lazy to think deep though. But, is it really g4 is a winning line, i doubt it, its enough to press the white king but i doubt its a win. But maybe im wrong.
Mar-23-14  morfishine: I thought 33...h3+ was worth a look. The position is visually deceptive: with Black's DSB under attack by the Knight, the best move <33...g4> is difficult to find

Good puzzle

*****

Mar-23-14  Dilbertarian: Best line according to Crafty is:

33. ... g4 34. f4 (fxg4, Rxg4!) h3+ 35. Kh2 Rd8 36. Rxc6 Rxd3 37. Rxc5 Nxc5 38. Qxc5 Rd2+ 39. Kg1 Rg2+ 40. Kf1 Rxg3.

Mar-23-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Penguincw: How did I not saw the rook hanging? Just in general, it's not a bad move to win the exchange, and I just missed it. :| I was thinking of 33...Nf4+ 34.gxf4 gxf4+ 34.Kf1 Rg1+ 35.Ke2, but not much else can be accomplished from here on out.
Mar-23-14  chessiya: What if white still continues like this and finds a draw after perpetuals ?? 35. Kxg3 Nf4 36. Nxf4 gxf4+ 37. Kf2 Ra8 38. Qb3 Rga7 39. c5+ Kf8 40. Ke2 Rxa2+ 41. Kd3 Rf2 42. Qb7 Rxf3+ 43. Kd4 Ra3 44. Qc8+ Ke7 45. Qc7+ Kf8 46. Qd8+ Kf7 47. Qd7+ Kf8 48. Qd8+ Kf7 49. Qd7+ Kf8 50. Qd8+ Kf7 1/2-1/2
Mar-23-14  BOSTER: I'd play 33...g4 34.f4 h3+ 35.Kh1
and now the main idea that knight
on d3 in the open file without protevtion
So, Rd7
If 36.Nxc5 Rd1+ 37.Kh2 Nxf4 and so on.
Mar-23-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jimfromprovidence: After 33...g4!!, if white follows with 34 Rxc6??, black's wins with 34...gxf3+.


click for larger view

White must follow 33...g4 with either 34 f4 or 34 fxg4.

<BOSTER> <I'd play 33...g4 34.f4 h3+ 35.Kh1 and now the main idea that knight
on d3 in the open file without protevtion
So, Rd7
If 36.Nxc5 Rd1+ 37.Kh2 Nxf4 and so on.>

<BOSTER> your line is good up to 35…Rd7, below.


click for larger view

The knight cannot move however, because of the threat …Rd1+. White has to play 36 Rxc6 here.

If 36.Nxc5 Rd1+ 37.Kh2 Ng5!! wins.


click for larger view

Mar-23-14  sfm: <OhioChessFan>, <PB: After all, had it been been checkmate the move would have counted even if the clock was not stopped in time.>

Does this mean that we can wait as long as you want (after the time control) with a mating move? I.e., that a player can run out of time, then 1 minute later finds that he has a mate in one, and plays it, and wins?

I.e. "just having a mate in one always wins, regardless of the clock".

Are the current rules like that?

Or it is rather so, that the player can be declared the loser on time forfeit, despite having a mating move that he clearly didn't make before the opponent claimed the win on time?

If so we have allowed for heated discussions on what came first: the time claim or an execution of a mating move, with the difference of a full point for either player. The winner: the one who shouts highest and is most unwilling to bow.

This is most unfortunate. Why allow that when there is a simple solution:

Make all moves, including a mating move within time, or you have lost.

This is well-defined, as the clock clearly shows if this happened. No discussion possible.

In that situation I suppose it does not make much sense to allow the last move to be registered as played, because it would make a difference if it was played just as the time run out or 'too long after'.

Mar-23-14  Rookiepawn: Just a doubt, not about the game itself but the way it is organized.

I always felt the purpose of organizing chess competences is to let the players play, concentrate on moves and nothing else. Writing moves and stopping clocks have nothing to do with the game itself.

The fact that a game result might depend on how fast your arm moves through the play strikes me as ludicrous. Today we have enough technology to create a board that both records moves and checks the time flag.

This wouldn't be so costful, and would improve chess quality so that the winner has much less to do with physical abilities than mental ones.

Mar-23-14  Rookiepawn: By the way, and curiously enough, I thought of 33 ... g4 as first option. Of course variants are mind-boggling to me, and I barely skimmed through them before going dizzy, but it strikes me as the only one to create chances on the K side.
Mar-23-14  BOSTER: <Jim Ng5> is very nice.
Mar-23-14  David2009: I don't understand this game at all. Why did Black resign in the final position


click for larger view

or did he lose on time?

If White rushes ahead like a bull at a gate he can lose: 35.Kxg3 Nf4 36.Nxf4 gxf4+ 37.Kf2 Rg6 38.a4 Rff6 39.a5 Rh6 40.a6 Rh2+ 41.Kf1 Rg6 42.a7 Rh1+ 43.Ke2 Rg2+ 44.Kd3 Rd1#. Clearly White has much better but was the position resignable?

POSTSCRIPT: All is clear from <Indigoviolet>'s post - Ivanchuk's flag did indeed fall. IMO a (legal) move is completed when the hand releases the piece: if one's flag falls one loses the game (unl;ess it is already complete for example by checkmate, stalemate or agreement to draw) provided that the opponent claims.

Mar-23-14  BOSTER: < Garech > and company < if Ivanchuk flagged...>.

The correct answer is:
to show the move on the score sheet and the
the time when the move was made automatically , what means that you don't need to press a clock.

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