< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 27 OF 30 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Nov-15-14 | | hoodrobin: <Yes, I'm hearing that at the moment of Kd2, Norwegian TV were airing a commercial for an inflatable Anastasia Karlovich doll. No wonder Vishy missed ...Nxe5.>
You are funny, <Scarlett>! |
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Nov-15-14 | | metatron2: Indeed it was a very poor opening choice by Anand to play specifically against Carlsen. But it seems to me like people focus too much on that mutual blunder on move 26. I don't find that blunder interesting at all. What interests me, is whether Carlsen could break Anand defense in case Anand would have played simple waiting moves ? Lets say that instead of the blunder, Carlsen played 26 Kd1 and continued with his plan to move his K to king side. If Anand just played Kc7 then, and Bb7-Ba6 (instead of his ambitious weird a4-a3 plan, that can't really be good), how would Carlsen proceed then? White can't play f3-Rg3-Rh3 since c4 will fall. And if he tries to protect c4 with Bd3 then Rd8 is harassing the bishop, and if white manages to push his B to e2/f1 then the pressure from Ng6 is gone, and black can get counter play on the d file. Can anyone see a winning plan for white after black simply puts his B on a6 and waits ? |
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Nov-15-14 | | Marmot PFL: <metatron2> it's still just a matter of moves until h6 falls, and while black might be able to draw somehow, in practice that position would be won for white more often than not I believe. |
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Nov-15-14
 | | perfidious: <keypusher: Carlsen is lucky he gets to play Anand and not some of the kibitzers around here.> Most especially <1971>, <jphamhock> and <CassandraThess>, who would beat the spots off him blindfold. To hear this rabble tell it, the reigning world champion cannot play any phase of the game--it is all about getting nothing from the opening and waiting for his opponents' blunders after he has put them to sleep with the most boring playing style ever seen. Ulf Andersson displayed the panache of Paul Morphy compared to the way Carlsen goes about his business. |
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Nov-15-14 | | rcs784: What are some other examples of a mutual blunder in a World Championship match? Offhand, I can only think of this game: Kasparov vs Short, 1993, where both sides missed 46...Rc5! drawing. Other examples? |
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Nov-15-14 | | SugarDom: Anand has a psychological problem with Magnus. He does not think Magnus is human and can't blunder. He spent 12 seconds in moving 26...a4 when he had 44 minutes in his clock. Anand can't expect to win the match when he misses tactics like this. |
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Nov-15-14
 | | keypusher: <rcs784>
jphamlore pointed out a good example from the Alekhine-Euwe match on another page. Not sure this one really qualifies, but:  click for larger viewTarrasch played 19.Kh1?? and Lasker missed ...fxe4 which won by force. But unfortunately for Tarrasch, that wasn't the last blunder in the game. Tarrasch vs Lasker, 1908 |
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Nov-15-14 | | artemis: <rcs784> Wasn't there a mutual oversight of a mate in 2 or 3 in game #2 of Kramnik vs. Topalov? |
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Nov-15-14 | | jphamlore: <keypusher> That Lasker - Tarrasch match was also notable for being one of the first and greatest trash talking chess matches of all time. It is a shame that Tarrasch has been so vilified in the chess literature translated into English while his own work Die moderne Schachpartie that was being criticized was not translated. The Soviet Union did not make that mistake translating Tarrasch into Russian so that players such as Smyslov could cite it as a formative influence. |
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Nov-15-14
 | | Sally Simpson: I'm glad someone asnswered the question I was going to ask. What was Carlsen's body language like whilst waiting for Anand to move? after he played 26.Kd2. He would have seen it was a blunder the moment his hand quit the King. Apparently he so shocked he could not write down his move. Poor lad, he is not use to making to blunders. Now would have been a good time to see his poker face. We won't get many more chances . It's a wonder Anand did not pick up a blunder-made vibe. The mysterious 26...a4.
 click for larger viewLike everyone else I was looking at the 26...Nxe5 and wondering what was wrong with it. (except those that had an engine pumping) Everything looks so good for Black.
It cannot be a mere blunder and I dug in looking for the twist. When 26...a4 was played.
 click for larger viewGosh he's seen it and is constructig a matiing net after Kd3 and Kxc4. 26...a4 covers the b3 square. Black is threatening 1.Nxe5 2.Rxg8 Nxc4+ 3.Kd3 Rxg8 (3...Nb2+!) 4.Kxc3 Rd8. and Black is on for Ka6 and Bb5 mate.  click for larger viewRemember I had this in my mind - 'fantastic. The White King is stumped, it cannot move, it is just waiting for a check. this is going to be up there with the immortals'. But then you see White can sac on c5 with Bxc5 and wreck it. It's all kack-handed, wrong move order, just simply wrong, it does not work. He had to play 26...Nxe5 and missed it. Anand had been given a penalty kick and blasted it over the bar. Then Carlsen played 27.Ke2 and it was gone. So I cannot figure what was going through Anand's mind with 26...a4. Possibly he can't. How does it end? Carlsen could have rubbed it in and thus (in the words of Larsen) make one win count as two wins.  click for larger view38...Ka6 39.Rxh6 Ka5 37.Rh8. Here, have a Rook.
 click for larger viewLarsen's theory being to win in such a way derails an opponents thinking the next time you play. The thirst for revenge out weighs rational thought. Anand resigned on time. He will be smarting but Carlsen won't be too happy with himself either. |
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Nov-15-14 | | jphamlore: What I feared for Anand this match appears to be happening. Instead of going with the stripped-down opening repertoire he used at Candidates 2014, a repertoire in which he could feel comfortable simply playing chess, Anand has allowed his team to try to retrofit onto his game a repertoire he wasn't previously playing extensively. The choice of a Sicilian Kan for game 6 for example is one of the variations of the Sicilian with which Anand has only had spotty experimentation as Black and even spottier success. The only reason Anand could even attempt this is that he has a phenomenal memory, work ethic, and discipline. But he apparently has neither the resources nor the team he had in say 2010 versus Topalov. The irony is that if Anand loses this match and if he puts in the physical training late 2015, he could go into Candidates 2016 again with a stripped down opening repertoire and win it. To me bravely going out with the intention of coming back in defeat only on one's shield is simply playing the best of what one's got, and if the other guy is better, the other guy is better. It's not playing stuff one does not normally play with some vague hopes of attacks that rarely materialize. As I have speculated earlier, it is entirely possible that Carlsen now is to Anand what Kasparov was to Korchnoi. But even if Korchnoi found at some point it was impossible for him to defeat Kasparov, it wouldn't make sense for someone to have said to Korchnoi, "Petrosian won a couple of games off of Kasparov; therefore, you must become Petrosian to beat Kasparov." |
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Nov-15-14 | | kardopov: 26. Kd2 is an intuitive move aimed at consolidating Carlsen's forces and reinforce his position at kingside in anticipation of the approaching endgame. Little did he realized it was a mistake, which (of all people) Anand failed to see and exploit. By this stage of the match, it seems that both players are exhausted, especially Anand. |
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Nov-15-14 | | kardopov: Anand's resiliency is at staked here. He can just brush aside the loss and fight another day. |
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Nov-15-14 | | erniecohen: Continuing the discussion of whether 32...♔a7 draws: <<keypusher>: One simple, probably dumb thing that occurs to me -- after 32....Ka7, does W have to take the rook? Can he just play 33.Bxa3?> White can refuse the exchange, but that allows Black to save the tempo (by leaving his Bishop on a4 where it supports the rook invasion to d1) and to double rooks on the d file, e.g.
33. ♗xa3 ♖d1 34. ♗xg6 fxg6 35. ♖xg6 ♖ad8 36. ♖hxh5 ♖1d2+ 37. ♔e3 ♖8d3+ 38. ♔f4 ♖xc3 39. ♖g7+ ♔a6 40. ♗xc5 ♖xc4+ 41. ♔e3 ♖xa2 42. ♗d6 ♖c3+ 43. ♔f4 ♗b3 44. ♖hh7 ♔b5 with the opposite colored bishops making a draw likely. |
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Nov-16-14
 | | Sally Simpson: Hi kardopov,
Carlsen knew it was blunder the moment he played 26.Kd2. Professional chess players exhausted in game 6 after 5 games and two rest days? No game has gone over 50 moves. Don't make excuses for them, It was a basic chess players double blunder one sees week in week out in open tournaments. In a way it gives us all hope. (though I am so disappointed for Anand. Carlsen is a brilliant chess player, these chances will round very rarely.) One did not think he was capable of making such a blunder, the other believed him. |
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Nov-16-14 | | erniecohen: Since it is starting to seem likely that 32...♔a7 draws, we can ask the other burning question: after 26. ♔d2, did Anand actually have a winning position, or was the game still a draw? After 26...♘xe5+ 28. ♖xg8 ♘xc4+ 29. ♔e2 ♖xg8 30. g3, Black is really up only one pawn (since the h-pawn is untenable), so despite his weak a and c pawns, White can probably draw if he can exchange his light bishop for Black's knight, leaving opposite colored bishops. As evidence that this position might be drawn, Houdini is unable to win this ending playing against itself; it ends up stuck in a drawn position (even though it still thinks is a Black advantage of something like 1.15). I'm not claiming that Black doesn't have a win, but it seems that the "proper" result is as likely to be a draw as a Black win. If White can draw this, then 26. ♔d2 was not, in the strictest sense of the word, even a blunder (since it didn't change the result assuming perfect subsequent play). Indeed, it seems likely that the only move that really changed the ideal outcome of the game was Black's innocent-looking 32nd move. |
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Nov-16-14 | | tranquilsimplicity: Anand has done brilliantly in playing dynamically as it has exposed Carlsen's invincibility; the loss of this game to Carlsen notwithstanding. 26...a4?? is a move that indicates Anand's single minded pursuit of a particular plan, thereby resulting in 'Chess blindness'. It may also be the case that Anand in his wildest dreams does/did not expect a monumental blunder from the World Champion and World Number 1. I can understand. Anand ought to "Wipe the slate clean" and continue playing in a dynamic style that may bring him yet another win, and if not, posterity will accord Anand a place as a true representative of Chess fighting spirit. Either way win or lose, Anand is a winner. Good luck to both.# |
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Nov-16-14 | | solskytz: At such a lofty level, champions and their contenders can actually be likened, on a personal level, to a Berlin Wall personified...
Each so solid, so sturdy, so all-around, so that no obvious weaknesses stand out. They just do everything so exceptionally well... However, it may be the case that Carlsen has actually managed to find the glitch in Anand's own wall. The glitch is - get a position where you can press him, even if objectively there is nothing. It turns out from game 6 (in both matches!) that Anand just doesn't like these positions, and he will do everything to exacerbate his own situation - sacrifice pawns needlessly, such as last year), or play unnecessary weakening moves such as ...h6, ...a4 and ...a3 this year. There was probably nothing wrong with sitting in one place, moving the B or the K back and forth and waiting - Anand just doesn't like that. So - establish even a slight pressuring position, then sit and wait for Anand to self-destruct. Just why this works against him, isn't really clear. Evidence is, it does. This kibitzer saw ...a3 coming before Anand played it. He also predicted the exact fashion in which Carlsen later exploited that error, and in detail. There was nothing seriously wrong with Anand's position (even discounting the fact that he didn't find ...Nxe5 when it counted) before he went ...a4. This kibitzer would never in a million years have played this move in this kind of position, engines or not. This kibitzer wouldn't get one whole point in a thousand tries against either champion or contender (the other day I beat a FIDE 2376 very nicely, in a Carlsenesque positional squeeze - but his position was way worse than Anand's today before he blundered a R) - it's just that I don't suffer from this particular glitch, and have no difficulty in sitting and waiting, and letting the other guy "prove it". So many times you win like that when somebody overextends or neglects tactics against him... come on Anand!! You can do it :-) |
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Nov-16-14
 | | perfidious: <solskytz> In <Secrets of Grandmaster Play>, Peter Griffiths wrote of grandmasters as being, by definition, balanced and complete players. All the kibitzing which typecasts Old So-and-So as a pure positional player, with Young Such-and-Such playing the foil as dynamic attacker completely lost in any other type of position makes for rich theatre, but is wholly unenlightening and does a disservice to their skills. |
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Nov-16-14 | | metatron2: <Marmot PFL: <metatron2> it's still just a matter of moves until h6 falls, and while black might be able to draw somehow, in practice that position would be won for white more often than not I believe.> Can you be more specific pls, and give some concrete variations for this? As I said, doubling rooks on the h file doesn't seem to work for white, in case his c4 pawn is not protected when the black B is on a6. And taking the h6 pawn with either the B or Rh5 while his R is still on g4, doesn't seem to work either, since white will have troubles defending both e5 and c4 once the black rooks are no longer stuck on the K side. So can you present concrete variations, when I just intend to play 26.. Kc7 followed by Bb7-Ba6 ? |
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Nov-16-14 | | tranquilsimplicity: <erniecohen> <White can PROBABLY draw IF he can EXCHANGE his light coloured Bishop for Black's Knight, leaving opposite colour Bishops> Firstly, many noted <Sally Simpson> Carlsen's body language after Kd2. Luckily for Carlsen, Anand was preoccupied and missed an opportunity to study the position closely. You, I and all Chess players and sportsmen/women understand the power of psychology in sports, war, contests, relationship battles etc etc. The power of psychology in the course of an event is incredibly telling! Secondly, you write -probably- and continue to suggest that the "probability" of a draw was/is high if White exchanges his light colour Bishop for Black's Knight. It is very likely that had Anand seen 26.Nxe5 the resulting continuations and variations would have allowed him to foresee that an ending with light coloured Bishops would be drawn thereby attempting to avoid such an ending; probably not allowing the exchange of his Knight (unless of course attempting to prevent the exchange of Black's Knight results in a worse position for Black) Finally, I have used software in the past to analyse my games and those of GMs. What I found is that software like Stockfish, Fritz, Crafty, Houdini etc, use dry calculations and at times evaluate positions as inferior, without taking into consideration the strategy behind those positions; with the result that a position previously assessed as inferior becomes a "won game" after 1 or 2 moves. Or conversely, after being judged as a superior position, turns into a drawn game or lost game after 1 or 2 moves. The conclusion I arrived at is that utilising software to analyse especially the games super GMs ought to be done cautiously as it may not strike at the heart of the winning strategy behind a particular position. However I thoroughly gained from reading your comments and will look at Black's 32nd move.# |
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Nov-16-14 | | FSTIMJP: Six hours of overnight silicon produced this: http://www.viewchess.com/cbreader/2... |
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Nov-16-14 | | tranquilsimplicity: <Perfidious> What you write is true. However, let us recall what Anand did last year; in my view, he approached the 2013 Championship cautiously and seemed to avoid "dynamism". He played solidly which made for quite uninteresting play, many draws and he still lost. So my philosophy is...play freely, confidently. And if one has to lose, lose with style (he..he..he). And when I suggest playing dynamically, I mean playing freely, confidently and actively (as evidenced in employing the Sicilian) and also in Anand's beautiful win a few days ago. But Anand is an extremely versatile, universal style player; at home in all aspects of the game. And so is Carlsen. And <solskytz> makes a beautiful observation that I have to employ in my game; sometimes, if playing dynamically or actively with ruin your position, it is best to just sit back, consolidate and let the other guy or girl prove that they can win - "Sit back and let him/her prove it".# |
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Nov-16-14 | | solskytz: <Perfidious> I have no doubt that these players (rated even 2400 and up) have seen it all, pretty much know it all and can explain it all. However - you saw me write about Anand's ...a3 and its consequences BEFORE Anand played that yesterday. How can you explain such a move from Anand? I wouldn't expect a player of my own level (2000 FIDE on a good day...) to play such a move in this kind of a position. Your opponent has the 2B's and is pressuring you on one side of the board - now you stretch your own defenses and create a weakness, a liability, on the other side of the board. This, and giving up that central pawn last year on game 6. Why not simply "stand in one place" and wait? |
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Nov-16-14 | | tranquilsimplicity: <FSTIMJP> Thanks for that assessment by Deep Fritz which concludes that 26..a4 is a blunder and that ..Nxe5 is winning for Black. Now do you see how our use of software ought to be exercised with caution? As Houdini is unable to win the resulting position after 26...Nxe5, whereas Deep Fritz judges the position as won for Black? (Well..even Houdini goes for -1.15 and is unable to win) Quod erat demonstrandum.# |
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