Well, I had no idea about the rivalry until I read Zarg's comment some years ago ... Magnus Carlsen (kibitz #35775)

<nok: <KP: There seems to be this lurking notion that the fact that he was carrying a gun makes him fair game> Fair game to be disarmed, absolutely. Unless you think fascists repressing protests with rifles is A-OK> It is not about how law should be - though that would be a valid conversation.

However , i think present conversation is about what the law is , if i am understanding correctly.

Let me see :

1) protest by left wingers , a right winger there with gun apparently to protect business/people if the protestors become violent . Correct ?

2) this could generally be legal - allowed as per law. Correct ?

3) in this case , the gun that right winger was carrying was assault rifle , so not allowed legally . Correct ?

4) so , if not allowed to carry assault rifle , he could be charged for that. Correct ? However , that is a minor aspect of case . Crux of case is that...

5) .... left winger protestors apprehensive of right wing guy carrying firearm and they want to disarm him and they attack him for that purpose. Correct ?

Now , i gather that <nok> saying that should be ok legally and <keypusher> saying like <i am not talking about 'should ' part , that is a separate conversation. As the law stands presently , it was not ok to attack that right wing guy , generally , and if he justifiably feared grievous bodily harm , he was allowsd to shoot as per law>

Correct ?

Any inputs , <saffuna> , <nok> , <keypusher>?

Thank you

<al wazir : The shooter only has to *believe* he is endangered?>

That is not what <keypusher> said. The keyword that <keypusher> used was 'reasonable '.

His believing that he was in imminent danger of grievous bodily harm is not sufficient , he needs to show it was reasonable to believe that - that is , any sane person would believe so , generally speaking.

Correct , <keypusher> ?

<nok: <KP: Keep the dumb takes coming, please!> Look, idgaf being called "dumb" by a self avowed racist. This also to remind <saffuna> who he is arguing with.

Kenneth Rogoff (kibitz #393333)>

Well, let us see this in perspective.

Iirc and understand correctly , <keypusher> was like <i think america is not yet ready for racial diversity and therefore i am not a fan of diversity. If that makes me a racist as per some definition of racism , so be it

However , i am talking about general population of america. Like , in general there is friction between left wingers and right wingers and similarly there is friction among different races, however many, many people including me are above that too and i never have 'us vs them ' attitude with regards to left wingers or people of different races , we all one humanity as far as i am concerned , if everyone/vast majority can be like me , then i would support diversity>

Correct , <keypusher> ?

Rittenhouse - did he act in self defense , was it justified ? In america , it is allowed to carry firearm in all the states , i believe.

So , when one is allowed to carry firearm then obviously one is allowed to use it too in self defense when needed/justified.

When is it justified , in general

A lazy google search corroborated what <keypusher> said (though for florida state , for my google search viz

< Justifiable use of deadly force is defined in Florida Statute Section 776.012(2):

A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.>

So , does this fit the circumstances of rittenhouse case , is the crux ..

Ok , i have done my homework.

There seems to be some mistake/problem , <keypusher> , because when i click on this link , i am taken to page number 5859 for me (i don't have anyone on ignore) and i don't see any post from you either on that page or a page before/after that page.

Date on the page is sep/03/2020

The most noteworthy living member is probably Secretary General of NATO and former Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg.

If you have NOK800 (~$100) knocking around, you can get the 489 pages book on the family from 1941. https://www.finn.no/bap/forsale/ad.... Available in digital form for free here. https://www.nb.no/items/75a562fca80...

Threshold question: does anyone care?>

<saffuna: Less now than last year. It's still irritating.

Texas is freezing because its state policies. Plus an extremely rare storm.>

Well, the way i see it - point of <keypusher> is that we can improve the quality of this forum by showing intelligent discrimination.

While we are at it - <mort> yesterday was again repeating the same nonsense like <cases of election fraud - court did not give chance to team of lawyers to present evidence>

Now , i was 'irritated ' to read this nonsense yet again and my first impulse was to post the refutation that <keypusher> had presented a few days ago when <gezafan> was babbling that <cases were dismissed because of lack of standing, they never git a chance to oresent evidence>

<Keypusher> was like <this lie never dies just like that anither lie...court in wisconsin dismissed the objection about lack of standing and allowed lawyers of trump to present their case/evidence and those lawyers were like 'we don't have any evidence , we were just making fools of ourselves and fooling gullible simpletons idiots like <gezafan> with our propaganda' >

However , i curbed my inpulse because stupid trolls like <mort> , <george wallace> , <big pawn> are not interested in truth/facts , no matter how many tine we refute their nonsense/lies , they still keep repeating the same nonsense without answering the refutation.

So , engaging with them lowers the quality of forum

And one has to ask the same question that <keypusher> asked <does anybody care ? Should a sane/smart person care ? >

I come to rogoff forum for the depth/sharpness/clarity of thinking people like <keypusher> and <johnlspouge> provide. I feel like i am in some top university of world where i am exposed to the way the best minds in the world work and that exposure helps me develop depth/sharpness/clarity of thinking/understanding.

Well, i am convinced with what <keypusher> said the other day (or at keast how i interpreted post of <keypusher> )

<Keypusher> , in the response to the post of <bureaucrat> , was like <yes , QAnon people are idiots , however , if we examine intelligently and dispassionately , two insights energe (i) they are not diabolical/dangerous , rather they are like scared children (ii) why are they like scared children - because , first they are idiots , however , other factor is that they have some legitimate concerns which are not getting addressed smartly by mature people>

2) that is the approach we should have - to listen and address/acknowledge their concerns.

3)i mean that <keypusher> is a smart , dispassionate conservative who cares about fact/truth and smart/intelligent conversations.

Most others conservatives here e.g. <mort> , <george wallace> /<big pawn> , <keyser soze> , <gezafan> are idiots however , they have some valid points/concerns . After all , <keypusher> is a conservatoves and that means he has some of the same positions that idiots like <diceman> , <ohiochessfan> , <thegoodanarchist> and other stupid right wingers have. So , obviously , those positions are smart/valid even though left winner/progressive liberals have different positions on those points.

4) so , the point is that we should show smartness/maturity.

Like <keypusher> refuted nonsense/lie that <gezafan> was spouting viz <court cases of trump to challenge election results were dismissed because of lack of standing , and were not given opportunity to pressnt evidence>

Obviously , such nonsense should be refuted.

5) at the same time , stupidity, childish trolling of these idiots should be ignored , perhaps.

6) i mean what is the point of the comments like <these right winvers are hurting/weeping because of the loss of trump>

What is the point of repeatedly saying things like these?

Now idiots like <big pawn> would say that i am telling <saffuna> what to do , that <saffuna> jas so many daddy here in this forum...

But no , i am not telling <saffuna> what to do.

I am simply saying that we should examine what we are doing , is that working ?

7) what do we want after all ? We don't want craziness like Qanon. We don't want stupidity , dishonesty, childishness of <mort> , <big pawn> and other stupid <right wingers> . Are we succeeding ?

I don't think so.

So what is the way forward ? I think posts/attitude of both <keypusher> and <johnlspouge> show the way forward.

Generally speaking , <johnlspouge> looks past fluff and gets to the essence very quickly and treats all the points very dispasdionately even if they are the posts of idiots like <mort> and <big pawn>.

<Keypusher> too shows the kind of maturity/intelligence that <johnlspiuge> shows.

So , that is how we should be . We should show maturity/smartness and listen to idiots compassionately/dispassionately and try to listen for their legitimate/valid concerns/criticism in the pile of garbage that they so copiously spout , after sifting and separating all the fluff/trolling/childish boast and such.

We don't want stupidity , dishonesty, childishness of <mort> , <big pawn> and other stupid <right wingers> .>

The real estate between ybr's ears disagrees!

<Poor broken emotional train wreck Ybr.

BP owns a:

Loft
Petting zoo
Apartment complex
Sports stadium
Jai alai court
Town pool
Movie theater
14 fine dining restaurants
6 fast food restaurants
in the dead space between Ybr's right/left ears.>

<Ybr:
Are we succeeding?>

However , this time , i was careless as i copied this post from rogoff forum and posted without deleting your name - i simply forgot. My bad.

So , you are right in pointing out that i did not live up to the standards i have set for myself.

My most sincere , deepest apologies to you <diceman>

Of course.

<Diceman> makes good points from time to time and i took his point with humility and gratitude , quietly , while expressed my apologies explicitly.

Regards.

P.s. some people may say that (i) <big pawn> is cultist and dangerous and therefore (ii) <ybr> is giving less attention than required not more to <big pawn>

However , i don't agree with point (ii)

Also , one more thing about <diceman> that inspires admiration - <diceman> and his fellow elite posters 'vowed ' that they would never post again in rogoff forum .

<Diceman> showed integrity in being true to his words - same can not be said about some of his fellow elite posters.

Strength of character and maturity of <diceman> is edifying.

I do miss insightful , incisive posts of <diceman> in rogoffland - especially his true love and concerns for chicago and black people. I can very well imagine how tough it would have been for <diceman> to stop posting about his true love in rogoffland. His strength of character is awe inspiring.