Protestant: YOU Catholics bow down to and worship statues!

Catholic: Uh ... no ... that's not right. In actual fact the Catholic Church says that statues or images are beneficial in aiding the Christian by focusing the mind on God and inspiring us by the saints who have faithfully served Him before us. This is clearly stated in the Catechism, under the section "You Shall Not Make for Yourself a Graven Image".

Protestant: Don't try to double-talk me with your Jesuit sophistry. I know you Catholics have twisted the Bible to suit your own heresy. Your adore statues like idols!

Catholic: I understand that Protestants are iconoclasts and destroyed many statues and works of art during the Reformation, just like the Muslims destroy statues and works of art because that is also against their religion, so in that regard it seems Protestants and Muslims are very much alike.

Protestant: Don't try to befuddle me with your popery. I know you Catholics are idol worshippers.

Catholic: In Exodus 25:18-20 God even commands Moses to make two cherubim of gold, so clearly statues do not contravene the first commandment.

Acts is not a book to get doctrine from as it's a transition book, detailing the transition from the gospel of the kingdom (to the Jews) and the gospel of grace to the Gentiles, the mystery which was hidden in God since the beginning but revealed to Paul later in Acts.>

Now you are just making stuff up. Don't get doctrine from Acts? Where does it say that? So the Christian church has been wrong for 2000 years, until you came along?

<Learn to rightly divide the word>

Oh brother. The reason you have to say we can't get doctrine from Acts is because it directly contradicts you!

In Acts 10, Peter preaches to the Gentiles, and the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles also, and they spoke in tongues and magnified God. Then Peter answered "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?

And then Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

And in Acts 16, Paul preaches the Gospel to the Philippian Jailer, and his entire house was saved and immediately baptized.

The message Jesus gave to Paul to give to us was not one of baptism, but of salvation by grace through faith alone and nothing else.>

pfft. So Paul and Peter were in rebellion against God when they baptized Gentiles? Baloney.

<One must be careful to rightly divide the word of God, otherwise the gospel will be lost on you.>

Now there have been councils affirming Christian creeds and essential biblical doctrines. Most of them I agree with not on their own authority rather because they appeal to a higher authority i.e. scripture. However there are even contradictions amongst these creeds so therefore they can't all be correct on all counts. No contradiction in the Bible which is the inspired word of the living God.

<Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.>

Peter puts preeminence of the scripture even over his ears direct hearing from God and what he saw with his own eyes and ears on the mount of transfiguration.

Hi <Jambow>,

I've addressed this point multiple times, as well as many other points multiple times, in this very forum since the beginning of December.

If you want to know what I have written on these various matters, please go back and read through my previous posts. I raised the topic here:

Big Pawn chessforum (kibitz #5273)

And Ohio engaged in the conversation here (The very next post).:

Big Pawn chessforum (kibitz #5274)

The discussion raged on, into the New Year, so there is plenty to look at, if you like.

<I would say Peter like Paul was Sola Scriptura.>

Demonstrably false. Both men participated in the Council of Jerusalem, for the purpose of resolving a dispute, Acts 15.

<tga: As you've obviously put a lot of thought into your religious viewpoints in the last half century or so, I am very interested in reading what you have to say on the topic!

If <BP> engages you, I will follow the discussion closely.>

A preview:

I believe <BP> is mistakenly following a false theology that arose from(watch for it now) the Reformation. I believe that (watch for it now) Protestantism is fundamentally flawed due to its faulty historical antecedents. I believe that the horrible theology of Calvinism was an overreaction to what was then the uber-works oriented RCC.

And I 100% agree that Mark 16:16 plainly confirms that a person must believe and be baptized to be saved.>

I think Matthew also has the same "great commission" wording:

1. Go into all the world (which includes Gentiles) and preach the Gospel to all creation (not just Jews).

2. He who believes and is baptized will be saved

Baptism is not a work, but a physical symbol of a spiritual truth: we become part of the body of Christ.

Also, Paul wrote Ephesians to a Gentile church, and reminded them that there is "one baptism". In Titus, Paul again references the "immersion" of baptism.

Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35
Current Communist Goals
EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Thursday, January 10, 1963

Mr. HERLONG. Mr. Speaker, Mrs. Patricia Nordman of De Land, Fla., is an ardent and articulate opponent of communism, and until recently published the De Land Courier, which she dedicated to the purpose of alerting the public to the dangers of communism in America.

At Mrs. Nordman's request, I include in the RECORD, under unanimous consent, the following "Current Communist Goals," which she identifies as an excerpt from "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen:

CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS
1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.

6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.

7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.

8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.

9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)

12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."

23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, and healthy."

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state." (Remember these goals were published to expose them in 1958) Coincidence?

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures, which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["] united force ["] to solve economic, political or social problems.

43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.

44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.

The purpose of sharing this list of 45 stated goals of the Communist Party is to provoke discussion on each of the stated goals with a view to understanding who, in America, has been brainwashed into accepting and fighting for these communist goals, to see how many of these goals have come to fruition, to get a birdseye view of the enemy's agenda, and to understand what needs to be done to restore America by reversing each of these stated goals.

Yuri Bezmenov warned America in 1983 about how the Communists were working to bring down America, and that there first step was to demoralize the country, that is, make the society a deeply immoral one. https://youtu.be/bX3EZCVj2XA

Sadly, many Americans have been brainwashed to believe in these 45 stated goals of the Communist party, even though they probably haven't even seen a list of them before. Just take a look at the Other Page and scroll through the comments and you'll see that all the libs basically stand for each of these 45 goals.

How were they so successfully brainwashed? By the media. It's the old, "Tell a lie often enough and people will believe it" - the Big Lie. In the 60s and 70s, the media started to portray divorced families as normal, okay and good, and after a while, more families were divorced than ever before, and the kids were taught to cope by believing it's okay and normal. That is just one example of the Big Lie in action.

Regardless of one's opinion of the Catholic Church, throughout history there have been Catholic priests who were good men who tried to help people. Having Pfleger as a priest disgraces the memory of these men.

Issue? To what post are you referring?

If it is this one, Big Pawn chessforum (kibitz #5554) , then I don't see any issues there. I see scriptural instruction.

Regardless of one's opinion of the Catholic Church, throughout history there have been Catholic priests who were good men who tried to help people. >

Are you Catholic? Just curious.

BTW, I agree with you. The body of Christ is composed of fallible humans with corrupt flesh. Not only that, the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for whom he may devour. Thus, Christ's church will always have bad apples, unto Judgement Day, due to these two influences.

Father Ripperger is one of the good ones.

If he's guilty I hope he's convicted and sentenced to prison.>

<Here is my attempt to summarize and condense the main points of debate. Currently, I consider the most salient points to be as follows:

1. <OCF> recognizes that we can convict in a court of law, based on evidence presented in court, even though it is not <our> own experience. (Also, eyewitness testimony is admissible in court.)

So why is eyewitness testimony of living witnesses (which is admissible in court) acceptable to him, but the eyewitness testimony of deceased persons is not acceptable? Does the act of dying refute eyewitness testimony from the deceased? (Keep in mind, history is, essentially, just recorded eyewitness testimony given by people of the past.)

2. Since <OCF> rejects <historical>, recorded eyewitness testimony, and this is the only possible evidence available to us if we want to <examine> and understand history, why does he repeatedly ask me to "prove" the historical record? After all, he automatically (and in advance!) rejects any and all possible historical evidence, other than scripture.

3. Since <OCF> rejects the recorded eyewitness testimony in the historical record (for example, the Council of Rome in 382 AD determining scriptural canon), what alternative does he posit for the creation of canonical scripture? In other words, who compiled it? And how did they compile it? And why should we reject compiled history as untrustworthy, yet trust in his alternative version of how scriptural canon came to be? (Assuming he can provide an alternative version.)

4. Scripture contains much history, of course. Why then, is it not invalidated for the same reason he invalidates non-scriptural history? After all, if history is written by the victors, that applies to history within the Bible as well as outside of the Bible.

5. Related to #3: As of yet, <OCF> presented absolutely no alternative to the Council of Rome, as explanation for the origin of the scriptural canon. If he has no alternative explanation for how the scriptural canon was created, why then does he accept the canon as the only infallible source for understanding Christianity? And by what methodology does he settle theological disputes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9af...