Conservatism flows logically from a theistic worldview and in our case, a Christian worldview since historically this was a Christian nation.

This means traditional conservative Christian values, morally speaking.

Conservatism here also means to have personal responsibility. You are personally responsible for your actions, a consequence of individuality and personal autonomy.

Conservatives in America are generally America-first types. They are nationalists.

I think the most fundamental aspect of conservatism is that it is rooted in theism, specifically Christianity.

Conservatism here also means to have personal responsibility. You are personally responsible for your actions, a consequence of individuality and personal autonomy. >

Depends.
Obama and Hillary get paid well for liberalism.

It's almost as if liberals choose to defend a lie knowing it is a lie, but they have this compelling desire to be an intellectual underdog. You would figure they would get tired of defending positions that are obviously wrong, like voter ID is racist. How stupid is that?

The Islamic State is not Islamic.
Bruce Jenner "woman" of the year.
Global Warming makes it cooler (sometimes).

The Democratic Party is the party of Civil Rights.

Why are they gluttons for punishment?

Are they just garden variety fools or were they traumatized as children?

We can say that liberals tend to be long on emotion and short on logic, but then we need to ask what that is.

I think that's where I keep getting confused.

<OhioChessFan: ... most Jews were secular Jews only, with very little real religious faith.> That's an interesting perspective.

I've heard other persuasive arguments that only Christianity can truly be classified as a religion, and that the classical liberal concept of 'freedom of religion' was only ever intended to apply to the various Christian denominations that already existed in society at that time, so this latter day idea of extending 'freedom of religion' to other non-Christian "religions" was never intended by classical liberals of the Enlightenment.

In truth, a more honest classification of non-Christian "religions" might be as follows:-

*Hinduism is a cultural tradition

*Buddhism is a philosophy

*Islam is a political ideology

*Judaism can be either a cultural tradition (as practiced in western countries) or a political ideology followed by Zionists.

Liberals love the Rocky Horror Picture Show, for instance. They also love all things Monty Python. Not kidding.

Liberals love the band Phish. They love the Grateful Dead too. Liberals love Starbucks coffee and always have drink fancy, limp-wristed coffee like a "Latta mocha with melted sugar and a shot of caramel..."

Liberals, in general, love sushi. They love soy milk and often go vegetarian.

Liberals have this thing where they act like the LOVE all these other cultures. They want to visit Japan and be all about Japanese culture, because they think it makes them look so smart and sophisticated. I think this is the appeal behind the sushi fetish as well.

Liberals move into the ghetto or near it to "prove" that they aren't "racist", and they live in crappy neighborhoods with people that hate them. They live in denial.

Liberals like to go to parties and try to be more intellectual than the next person, and they do it all the time. They pretend to be so absorbed in the impact of colonialism and stories of racism that are 500 years old.

Liberal men are often absolutely ball-less. They are totally henpecked and let their wives wear the pants in the family while they act like big, overgrown, immature boys that need a mama instead of a wife. Liberal men submit to women in every way, shape and form. Then, to make matters worse, they brag about it, "Yeah, ha ha ha, you'll have to ask the 'boss' (his wife) about that...ha ha ha"

It's pathetic. And when liberal guys try to pick up girls at parties or wherever, it's a disgusting display of demasculinization. They suck up to them about how patriarchy is SO offensive. They laugh with them about how real men are just "putting it on" and covering up their insecurities. They put the girl in charge from the git go.

It's disgusting.

Liberal men give up all their masculinity and pretend that they are just being modern. You know, no need to drag knuckles on the ground like it's 1955.

Liberal women are hung up on feminism. When they say they want equality in a relationship, that means they want to run the show. Make no mistake about it.

Liberals love Starbucks coffee and always have drink fancy, limp-wristed coffee like a "Latta mocha with melted sugar and a shot of caramel...">

Reminded me of this:

Alan or do we say Tom or maybe PT for short?

Yes American liberals are really intolerant ambassadors of wickedness who hate everything good and have nothing in which they don't utterly contradict themselves. Wonder when they are marching in Mecca?

< Big Pawn: Liberalism is the rationalization of sin and sinful desires and is the enemy of commonsense.>

This reply is problematic.

I really like the question from <optimal play>. How can you discuss a topic if it is undefined?

So you start your reply with a religious definition of liberalism. I was hoping for a <political> definition from you.

You at least go on to provide examples of what you consider to be liberal positions on political questions. But that is a poor substitute for a <definition>.

However, I must confess I cannot readily define liberalism either, from a purely political POV. I am more likely to try to offer up an <example> of a classic political liberal. Dennis Kucinich comes to mind. Ted Kennedy would be my second example.

And I read over most of your examples. Such as:

<Liberalism pretends there is nothing wrong with the homosexual lifestyle.

Liberalism pretends that executing murderers and violent criminals is a moral equivalent to aborting innocent unborn babies. (They say, you're "pro life" but want to execute murderers!).

Liberalism pretends that men and women are the same. No differences.>

And I started to think that maybe the best definition of <liberalis>, outside of an across-the-board opposition to traditional Judeo Christian beliefs [which I view as an oversimplification], would be the attitude that <exceptions exits to all the black-and-white pronouncements of traditional values>. Consider it a definition in progress, which needs refinement.

And by traditional values, I mean that in the sense that they are the values that have been espoused by Western religion for at least 2000 years. Or we could extend that further to Judeo Christian religion for 4-5K years.

[However, I was never much for studying the Old Testament so I will stay away from that definition.]

I am continually trying to work through things. Why does this or that happen? Why does this or that group think this or that thing?

Back to your post:

<Liberalism pretends that men and women are the same. No differences.>

I don't see this as classic liberalism. I see this more as a radical feminism viewpoint.

Classical liberalism looked at 19th century labor laws and said "we need an occupational health and safety administration to protect workers from predatory capitalism" [for example]. Or, we need a union to protect us. We need a 40-hour work week law. Etc.

My own view (as an objective outsider) is that both liberalism and conservatism have become caricatures.

I don't see this as classic liberalism. I see this more as a radical feminism viewpoint.>

Optimal Play was correct when he said that I am talking about modern American liberalism and not classical liberalism.

I would add to that it isn't just emotion it is anti-logical emotion in almost every instance...

<I really want to know what causes someone to go liberal.>

As we understand liberalism it is just rebellion. Nobody could be wrong so often out of mere ignorance or you would expect 50%. If you are wrong that often you have to be rebelling against truth by a willful desire?

Is there a difference between classical liberalism and moonbat crazy leftist running the American media and universities? Probably but I have only known the latter so if the other ever existed it is from an era in which I didn't exist.

That said I don't think conservatives are that different than in times past but maybe some one can explain how they have changed? I here the liberal cliché of how Reagan couldn't get elected by today's Tea Party types etc... but actually they would have voted for him I did.

<As we understand liberalism it is just rebellion. Nobody could be wrong so often out of mere ignorance or you would expect 50%. If you are wrong that often you have to be rebelling against truth by a willful desire?>

I've thought this before and forgot all about it. I think you have a very interesting point there. Rebellion. Yes, they are rebelling against God. I commented above, <Liberalism is the opposite. It is rooted in self; in humanism.> Also, <There is something about our liberalism that is connected to sin and sinful desires, as well as an inability to reason soundly and have common sense. >

So I think we agree strongly on this point. I think liberalism is an intricate web of justification, rationalization and excuse-making for chasing one's sinful passions, knowing that it goes against God, and putting one's self ahead of God. It is the apologetics of pride, of arrogating one's self above God, in the spirit of Satan. Satan exalted himself above God and reasoned it his own way. He was the first liberal in that sense.

Liberalism, on it's most fundamental level is liberty but from what? From God. Liberalism says, "don't squash my good time with your puritanical rules and antediluvian moral codes".

This leads to liberals denying there is a right and wrong; a truth. Everyone knows that some things are right and some are wrong, but when pressed, the liberal goes full retard and loudly proclaims that there is neither. Again, the language of Satan, the language of Sin personified. This is the language of pride, of arrogance.

Conservatism accepts that God exists and is in charge. It means putting your selfish desires in check and submitting to God's will. This is not for the proud or the arrogant. First you must humble yourself before God and realize that you are nothing. We must acknowledge right and wrong; the truth.

Liberalism refuses to humble itself even before God, but conservatism is all about humility before God.

No "probably" about it. FDR & The Kennedys are great examples of "classic" liberals.

Fundamentally liberalism is a lie.

The real question is,
"Who actually does go liberal?"

Does Obama put his daughters in ghettos/slums, and applaud them birthing illegitimate kids?

Does Hillary?

Does Al Gore live in a "studio apartment" and drive a Honda Fit, to lower his carbon footprint?

Do liberal college professors, who
decry capitalism hate their fat paychecks, and retirement benefits?

So what "liberalism" turns out to actually be, is an insidious, despicable, hate filled, lie, fascism, McCarthyism, slavery, that only gets inflicted on the lowest rung of the ladder. (the poor & the minority) A government run fascism inflicted on the middle class through laws, mandates. By folks who believe in, "Do as I say not as I do."

This manifests itself in 3 basic ways:

1)The Profiteers

The Obamas/Clintons/Politicians/
College Professors/Teachers Union/Union Worker/
et al. Who don't live it, but profit
from it.

2)The naive, ignorant, stupid, dependent, indoctrinated.

This is everything from Joe sixpack to
the millionaire movie actor, ignorantly lured by the verbiage of liberalism. "Peace, equality, fairness, dignity, tolerance, inclusion" that's all yap, yap, yap, and never actually happens. Down to the dependent victim voter, who believes liars like Obama Clinton actually care or are their only choice. Liberalism is always wonderful for someone else.

3)Hate America, hate capitalism, crowd.
This is like lil jiff, Bartle, Abdel, on the Rogoff page. They know who they are. They know their lies/failure. They cant even be bothered to defend it. They're simply filled with enough hate to support it.

So when folks "embrace" liberalism,
don't listen to a liars mouth, look at how they live their life. Look if they profit, watch if they hate.

So, if we come to the day when Democrats "embrace" beastiality. Remember, it's only about money, power, a liar, and a vote.

Doesn't mean Obama will be having sex with a tree sloth anytime soon.

You have some good points, <diceman>.

<Do liberal college professors, who decry capitalism hate their fat paychecks, and retirement benefits?>

Indeed, the hypocrisy reaches for the sky.

I've been coming around to thinking that a better handle for libs 'n' progs would be <statist>, that is, allegiance to the state as the supreme being... but that doesn't touch on American liberals' extreme desire to re-engineer society and meddle with other people's lives. So <statism> is a major component of modern liberalism, but only a component.

I'm at a loss to understand *why* libs 'n' progs always want to turn the culture upside-down--unless it's due to a rarely-articulated expectation that they will somehow wind up in the drivers' seat and have control over everyone else.

This implies that the modern American liberal actually believes in God!?

Do you mean that the modern American liberal hates the "idea of God"?

Certainly the radical extreme Left hates Christianity!

Check this out for example...

<Good Friday and Columbus Day renamed by 'inclusive' US city of Bloomington>

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-ca...

<The US city of Bloomington in Indiana has renamed Good Friday and Columbus Day as "Spring Holiday" and "Fall Holiday" to be more "inclusive".>

Now obviously the inherent evil of renaming Good Friday speaks for itself, but I guess the approximate equivalent of Columbus Day would be our Australia Day, when the First Fleet arrived to establish the British settlement. For some years now, the radical extreme Left has been trying to get rid of our national day because they see it as some sort of insult to Australia's aborigines.

It's just this type of crazy moonbat dogma which pushes people to the Right (although they have their own set of scary nutbags!)