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Apr-06-07
 | | jessicafischerqueen: Gday,gday (choke, sputter)
<Feeling and Being Felt in the Films of Ingmar Bergman> is the title of the paper I have to finish today. And I'm not changing the title so there. <Bill> Good work!! I advise you to post every game you ever played, as well as your unfinished 9888 page autobiography and your grocer's list. This is FROGSPAWN, man, not a tobacconist's!!
Mrs. Stuffed Prune
Not Awake at the moment (literally) |
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Apr-06-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Achieve> Yep, I agree -- I'd noticed that nonsense about Van Wely as well ("shouldn't be allowed in the tournament" and blah blah blah...) I'm not inclined to be as generous as you are towards the people who say such things. Do they have the slightest idea how strong the guy is? OK, so he had the courage to play in a tournament where he's actually seeded last -- instead of the other 99.99% of tournaments in the world where he'd be the top seed -- and then people complain because he loses games? To me, this kind of complaining is just rank idiocy. Rank idiocy. Heh. There's a joke in there somewhere, if I could find it. A point I've made a few times, in various forums -- similar to your idea -- is that these 'fans' should try a little experiment. Get the games from a big open tournament like Gibraltar. See how the 2200 guys (and gals) smash up the 2000 'weaklings', and see how the 2000-rated weaklings conduct brilliant sacrificial attacks against the 1800 players. In the other direction, see the 2200 guys outplayed by the 2400 guys, who in turn are beaten comprehensively by the 2600 people. All is relative. These super-tournaments confined to over-2700 types are flawed in various ways. The number of draws is necessarily higher, I think -- and the number of really first-rate decisive wins is quite small. And even at this level many games are decided by that Curse of Humanity, blunders in time trouble. I have a book of a 1982 tournament in London, one of the strongest in the world that year. It's interesting to see who played, and what their ratings were. Karpov (2720) and Andersson (2605) were joint 1st, followed by Seirawan (2575), Speelman (2550), Timman (2655) and Portisch (2630). Further down came Spassky (2625), Miles (2575), Geller (2545), Nunn (2590)... and Nigel Short (2430) in last place. In the early 1980s, Karpov was the only player over 2700, with a bunch of elite players behind him on 2600+. Seems to me that -- at super-GM level -- there is clear ratings inflation of about 100 points. Lower down, strange things have happened too. I get the impression that players in the 1600-2000 range are actually stronger now. Databases, engines and online play have raised standards. But I don't agree that the top players are significantly stronger than those of a generation back. In some areas, like endgame play, they may actually be worse. As for the whole business of seeing somebody as a rating, not as a person -- this is deplorable. It's not new, though. I remember an incident in the 1970s where an 1800 player refused to speak to a 'mere' 1300 who had drawn with him, and objected furiously when it emerged that the 1300 guy had been assigned the wrong rating in the tournament, and should 'really' have been about 1700. His argument, which he thought was perfectly reasonable, was that he played differently, thinking he was up against a 'patzer'. I don't like that word, patzer -- even when people use it in a self-deprecating way about themselves, it seems to imply a built-in class system in chess. Rant, rant. It's a complex issue. I *do* know that most of my past wins against high-rated opponents came from being fearless and not fazed by reputation or rating. If I start respecting them too much now, I'm in trouble. When Tony Miles began to beat top Russian GMs regularly, people were amazed. Before that, one token win per career was the norm, and could be discreetly bragged about ("Yes, I beat Tal once, you know, gin and tonic, please..."). But Miles kept on doing it. "They miss things too" was what he said. |
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Apr-06-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Niels> -- <Your forum is filling up nicely and swiftly, very chess-related!> This tends to happen in bursts. We'll probably go right off the rails again soon. Though I must admit that focusing on chess attracts a wider range of weirdos... And I mean that in the best possible sense, of course. Weird is *good*. |
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Apr-06-07
 | | Domdaniel: <mckmac> I havta admit, I've seen that position before, or something very like it. Which doesn't mean that I know the solution, but I think I know how to start working it out. As far as I remember, there are two main lines with a type of symmetry between them. I could be all wrong, of course. |
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| Apr-06-07 | | WBP: <Dom> forgive my intrusion, but definitely some interesting points here. <I remember an incident in the 1970s where an 1800 player refused to speak to a 'mere' 1300 who had drawn with him, and objected furiously when it emerged that the 1300 guy had been assigned the wrong rating in the tournament, and should 'really' have been about 1700. His argument, which he thought was perfectly reasonable, was that he played differently, thinking he was up against a 'patzer'> How truly pathetic! This whole ratings thing is so blown out of proportion. Wasn't there a huge protest against Pillsbury entering the Hastings tourny, and then he went on to win it? How many times have we read of a tail-ender upsetting a first prize contender in the final round? Also, there are numerous occasions of a dark horse--often an older player--having a very high score in a tournament. Suffice it to say that on a good day, Van Wely can beat anyone in the world. <These super-tournaments confined to over-2700 types are flawed in various ways. The number of draws is necessarily higher, I think -- and the number of really first-rate decisive wins is quite small> This has been my view has well--few chance-takers (Moro's one). I didn't enjoy much the Lineras games this year. Anyway, your post touched a nerve. Frankly speaking, I was very, very lucky in the game I played yesterday--had my opponent played slightly differently in the opening, the result could well have gone the other way. Hi <Jess.> Hope your papers/exams and so forth are almost over, at least for the time being. I'm in the middle of a living hell! <Post my games? my huge autobiography?? my grocery list???> Careful what you ask for... |
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| Apr-06-07 | | WBP: <Suffice it to say that on a good day, Van Wely can beat anyone in the world> Probably should have said "almost anyone." |
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Apr-06-07
 | | Domdaniel: <WBP> Oh, I don't think we need the qualifier: Van Wely can certainly beat anyone. It depends, perhaps, how good the good day actually is... |
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| Apr-07-07 | | achieve: <Domdaniel> -- <Seems to me that -- at super-GM level -- there is clear ratings inflation of about 100 points.> There have been exhausting but at times interesting discussions on that at the Carlsen-page. IMO there is no doubt that the Karpov of 1985 was definitely stronger than Etienne Bacrot now - Both having almost identical ratings ~2710. But I'm no expert on these matters, I just replay their games and base my judgement on that. All those stats and comparisons and the authority people derive from that freak me out to be honest. I'm not *against* stats it's just that.. well you know. Here is a nice (true) story on the "kid" van Wely
In Amsterdam we have the "Max Euwe center", terrific place! I frequently visited it in the 80's cause they have a huge, quality library and the best available first generation (?) comps, plus the people were very fiendly, which also counts for something. Anyway, the young van Wely visited it too sometimes and he would go and immediately sit behind the strongest comp (Mephisto with those beautiful sensory boards) and play blitz and MURDER it! I just couldn't believe my eyes when I once saw it *happen*. He played Amber recently and made some very impressive wins there.. not aiming for a draw like some did. On good days he has beaten all the top GM's, no exception if I'm correct. <I don't like that word, patzer -- even when people use it in a self-deprecating way about themselves, it seems to imply a built-in class system in chess.> Bingo my man! Rank idiocy! Low self esteem etc.. Seriously, I think your remark is right on the nose. I even think that the van Wely's have a sort of subconscious thinking that makes them feel they *belong* in a certain category. Happens in all sports.. Just plain and simple psychology. I think Timman reached several winning middle-games in that candidate against Karpov but got nervous, didn't go for the jug so to speak, make couple of passive moves and allowed Karpov back in.. Some sort of blockade seemed to creep in..
Frustrating times those for me.
<Rant, rant. It's a complex issue. I *do* know that most of my past wins against high-rated opponents came from being fearless and not fazed by reputation or rating.> That's it! They miss things too! After all Miles and Timman did *rock* the Russians on numerous occasions! Btw the Max Euwe centre is still there. If you should ever visit Amsterdam, be sure to check it out. It's on the Max Euwe Square (plein). No joke, right in the heart of the beautiful 'centrum'. I always felt like a kid in a candy store there! |
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| Apr-07-07 | | Eyal: Re the "rating inflation" debate, here's a series of posts from Boris Spassky: <Jaymthetactician: I dont think there's a rating inflation, it's just that today's players are much stronger then the past. Evidenced by how the further back in time you go, the lower the world champion is rated. For example: If Botvinnik was 2500 later on, then Alekhine would only be rated around 2000 nowaday's, with Steinitz being about 1800, and Morphy being around 1500, Anderssen I think would 1300, while Philidor might be 1250.> <chancho: Morphy 1500, Steinitz 1800.The World champion was rated 1800. If we could somehow build a time machine, then went to the past and played Steinitz, why, we all have a shot at becoming World Champion! Hey boys! the dream is still alive! Keep hope alive!> <MoonlitKnight: Even without the opening knowledge of today I still think Morphy would come straight out of the time machine and smash strong players. Given a few months, he would probably become a GM.> <azaris: If Philidor was put in a time machine and sent to our time, he would be a strong IM.If <jaymthetactician> was put in a time machine and sent to Philidor's time, it would be a blessing to us all.> |
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| Apr-07-07 | | achieve: Nice punchline! Good find <Eyal> I'm tempted to go with MoonlitKnight.. |
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| Apr-07-07 | | WBP: <Eyal> yeah, good find. I see now that some people are beginning to collect memorable quips and outrageous sayings. The guy who runs the Alchemist page now has an alter ego page where he's assembled some great things. And Karpova has some of the funniest stuff I've ever seen in his bio. (Apparently he and LifeMasterAJ have a long-standing dispute--Karpova's pretty merciless with him!) |
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| Apr-07-07 | | Eyal: <WBP> Yeah, Karpova's collection is quite nice (though it hasn't been updated for a rather long time) - I like it especially well since it includes a quote by myself! Btw, I believe Karpova is a she, not a he. |
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| Apr-07-07 | | WBP: <Eyal> <(though it hasn't been updated for a rather long time)> Nor has Karpova posted much recently. Interesting notion about Karpova being a woman. Could very well be true. And good line about Danailov! |
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| Apr-08-07 | | achieve: <Dom> I copied this amazing game from <shropshire>'s forum. It shows incredible courage and positional sacrifices that blew me away.. If you have the time, give it a look. Goes to show that those *mere* 2400 guys, which these two are, can play a masterpiece. (Tadic with White)
This is really a stunner!
1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 c6 4.Nc3 dxc4 5.a4 Bf5 6.Ne5 e6 7.g3 Bb4 8.Bg2 Ne4 9.O-O Nxc3 10.bxc3 Bxc3 11.Ba3 Qxd4 12.Nxc4 Qxc4 13.Qd6 Bf6 14.Rfd1 e5 15.Rab1 Bxb1 16.Bh3 c5 17.Bxc5 Qxa4 18.Rd5 Qa1 19.Bd7+ Kd8 20.Bb6+ axb6 21.Qxb6+ Ke7 22.Qc5+ Kd8 23.Bb5+ Nd7 24.Rxd7+ Ke8 25.Rxb7+ Kd8 26.Qb6+ Kc8 27.Qc7# 1-0 |
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| Apr-08-07 | | Eyal: <Niels> Btw, until move 15 by Black, this game was following R Knaak vs Hertneck, 1990 and Khalifman vs Wojtkiewicz, 1997 - so essentially, it doesn't contain any really new idea. I also found 11 other games where White played in this line 15.Qc7 instead of Rab1. 15...Bxb1? is a mistake, which should allow White at least a perpetual after 17...Qa6 (rather than Qxa4??) 18.Bd7+ Kd8 19.Bc6+ Kc8 20.Bd7+ etc. (though according to Fritz he can also play for a win with 19.Qd2). All of this game was probably home preparation by White - at least until move 25, where he missed an immediate mate with R- to d file... |
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| Apr-08-07 | | Eyal: So I would say that the Tadic-Solak game chiefly demonstrates the importance of home preparation, especially in such a tactically sharp variation - Hertneck had to find OTB why Black shouldn't play 15...Bxb1; Wojtkiewicz probably knew the Knaak-Hertneck game; Solak didn't know it and couldn't find out for himself, so he lost to his better prepared opponent. |
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| Apr-08-07 | | whiteshark: <Anything for a laugh>
icy silent - damn - I have forgotten the point..
The mobile warbles the melody...
<Always look on the bright side of life. Always look on the light side of life.
If life seems jolly rotten,
There's something you've forgotten,
And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
When you're feeling in the dumps,
Don't be silly chumps.
Just purse your lips and whistle.
That's the thing.
...>
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| Apr-08-07 | | LoesR: <Eyal> Niels here.. from another comp ;-) You did some thorough research! Feel a bit deflated after my original exaltation.. but you are very right. I'd seen that 15..Bxb1 is the teaser that shouldn't be taken. Wojtkiewicz played Qe6 and went on to win the game. So that means that Tadic would have had an improvement in mind for white if he played homeprep'd. I did see the earlier mate but that's irrlevant. Qa6 is indeed a perp. My view is that if you enter such a sharp tactical sac feast and remember those motif OTB, beginning essencially witn 9.0-0, (you do not know the opponent deflecting along the way at any point), it is still very courageous and offers a lot of pleasure and insigt for any player like us to enjoy and do some good analysis <Eyal: So I would say that the Tadic-Solak game chiefly demonstrates the importance of home preparation etc.> May be very likely, but, me being a romantic, see this as a beautifully constructed game. Not sure if homeprep covers it all. Allowing Bxb1 to get control over the h3-c8 diagonal is a beautiful motif. If Tadic had done his homeprep well he would have known that black can draw or win on 2 occasions. (Qe6 and later Qa6..) So was Tadic well or better prepared? Not sure -- we'd have to give the man a call to find the truth on that. ;-) Still a helluva game for me! Regards,
Sock-puppet-revealed-Niels |
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| Apr-08-07 | | Eyal: <If Tadic had done his homeprep well he would have known that black can draw or win on 2 occasions. (Qe6 and later Qa6..)> Well, as you pointed out yourself, he might have had in mind some improvement for White after 15...Qe6. Letting Fritz analyse [!] the position for a while, it seems that White actually has good winning chances after 17...Qa6 18.Bd7+ Kd8 19.Qd2(!), and here the main line goes 19...Bd3 20.Bb5 Qe6 21.Qxd3+ Kc8 22.Bd6 Rd8 23.Qc2+ Nc6 24.Bxc6 Qxd6 (Rxd6 25.Bd5+) 25.Rxd6 Rxd6 26.Be4+. Black might be better off with 17...Qc2, after 18.Bd7+ (not 18.Rd5? as in the game, because of 18...Qc1+ 19.Rd1 Qxd1+ 20.Qxd1 Be4) Kd8 19.Bf5+ Ke8 20.Bxc2 Bxc2 21.Rd5 Bf5 22.Rxe5+ Be6. <Feel a bit deflated after my original exaltation...> Oh, I know that feeling very well - see my post on p.61 of this forum about Radjabov vs Topalov, 2007 ... |
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Apr-08-07
 | | Domdaniel: And it looks like such a good game, too. But Knaak has been one of my favorite players for years, and I'd seen this line before. It's not just home preparation - it's home preparation with an engine that will helpfully point out that White has a mate in 10 (or whatever) after 17...Qxa4. So... a memory show, with no 'real' moves played at all? Should it matter? Is it any different from, say, the fact that Andy Warhol didn't personally apply brush to canvas? And anyone with a Fritz could find the same combination? I don't know. I really don't know. |
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Apr-08-07
 | | Domdaniel: <WBP> -- < I'd love to post it (with a little ananlysis), but wouldn't want to do so without your permission (it could get pretty messy if everyone came along and posted his or her games on your site!) Bill > And it *isn't* 'pretty messy' already? Be my guest, mess factor nine... |
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Apr-08-07
 | | Domdaniel: Dear <LoesR>
Statistical analysis reveals that you have kibitzed one time only on chessgames.com -- and on this very page.It's an honour, sir/madam.
Regards
8 1/2 CC |
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| Apr-08-07 | | Eyal: <So... a memory show, with no 'real' moves played at all? Should it matter?> Well, I think it should, because unlike the Warhol case there's no genuine element of conceptual novelty here - this game is kind of a "leftover" from Knaak vs Hertneck and Khalifman vs Wojtkiewicz, demonstrating why Black shouldn't have entered a certain sideline in those games. |
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Apr-08-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Eyal> Yes, I suppose you're right -- though 'conceptual novelty' might be seen as a last-ditch effort to sustain a romantic belief in originality or creativity. Maybe. In chess, at least, where home preparation is concerned, we can distinguish different types. Falling into a tactical sideline of existing analysis (whether published or not) is one thing. Another is innocently playing a line believed to be good and being rocked by a genuine novelty. One of my favorite examples of this is (in the French, naturally) Zaw Win Lay vs Khalifman, 2000. Zaw Win Lay played 18.Rad1, a 'new idea' which had been assessed as 'interesting' by such experts as Ivanov and Psakhis (though he retracts this in his latest book). It had been played twice in previous GM games, both won by white. Khalifman: "This move has just one very little drawback -- it loses immediately." After 18...Rxd1 19.Rxd1 e5! Black remains a piece ahead. A nice piece of homework by Khalifman, yes? More amazingly, 18.Rad1 has turned up a few times since then, even at GM level. Usually Black just rattles out the refutation, but I've seen one game between 2200+ players where neither was aware of it, and the game was drawn. As I think you said: don't venture into deep theoretic waters without preparation. Personally, I'd rather play 2.a3 and get an original position, even when I'm capable of following 20 moves of theory. I think the only really good reason for playing 20 moves of theory is if you happen to have found a killer 21st. |
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Apr-08-07
 | | Domdaniel: Right, there's work to be done. I just made a sobering trip to the Statistics page. While this forum remains comfortably in 3rd place, I personally have been overtaken -- for the 2nd or 3rd time, I think -- by Chessgames.com. I don't get it. They never used to be so garrulous before... oh well, hey, time to 'annotate' a few 'classics'... any suggestions? |
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