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| Apr-20-10 | | YouRang: If I may comment on the apparent contradiction regarding righteousness: Rom 3:10-12 <10As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."> vs.
<Gen 6:9 This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.> ~~~~
IMO, this is resolved by understanding that righteousness is based on faith. In Romans, Paul is talking about the condition of man *apart* from faith. He is continuing the thought from verse 3: <What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar....>. In fact, Paul is continuing the discussion that began in Rom 1:18, about the righteousness of God's wrath. By chapter 3, Paul is explaining the even Jews, to whom the law was given, are not entitled to consider themselves righteous (and exempt from God's wrath) apart from faith. But when Paul gets to verse 3:21, he describes righteousness by faith: <21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe...> As for Noah (and a number of other people in the Bible who were described as "righteous", e.g. Abram, Job, Daniel, Zechariah, Simeon), I think one can, without inconsistency, still regard this as a "righteousness by faith". Whenever someone is called "righteous", there is some indication of the presence of faith (e.g. "walked with God"). This is most clearly exemplified in the case of Abram, Gen 15:6 <Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.> |
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| Apr-20-10 | | whatthefat: <YouRang: IMO, this is resolved by understanding that righteousness is based on faith.> Perhaps, but that's not clearly stated anywhere, it's your interpretation of the text. Instead we have an absolute statement: <There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.> <In Romans, Paul is talking about the condition of man *apart* from faith. He is continuing the thought from verse 3> Right, but I think it's very important to note that he then intervenes with this statement: <What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[b]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.> There is no qualifier - those of faith are not excluded, it applies to *everybody* (Jews and Gentiles alike). |
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| Apr-20-10 | | whatthefat: Returning to the issue of Elijah, I pointed out that these two passages are in apparent contradiction: <<2 Kings 2:11>"As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind." But in <John 3:13>, Jesus says: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man."> <OCF> responded to this by pointing out that the translated word used for "heaven" is different in each case (it is "shamayim" in the first case, and "ouranos" in the second), and that "shamayim" can have multiple meanings. He said: <<shamayim> ... can mean "sky", or it can mean "heaven". Ball's in your court to prove this usage means "heaven".> I mistakenly assumed both "shamayim" and "ouranos" were Hebrew words, when in fact the latter is Greek, so this is not a simple matter of mistranslation of sky into heaven. The word heaven in the English translation of the Bible appears 577 times, and in almost every case it is derived from either "shamayim" or "ouranos". Without mankind having yet ventured into the skies, it was commonly believed (not just by Christians but also in other mythologies) that God resided in the sky - hence the use of this word. If you look at other passages, the word "shamayim" is in fact clearly used to mean heaven. For example, Yahweh is said to live in "shamayim" in Psalm 2:4, 11:4 and 14:2. Additionally, Elijah is prophesied to return, and even claimed by Jesus to have returned as John the Baptist (although this is directly contradicted by John the Baptist). From where was he returning all this time later if not Heaven? |
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| Apr-20-10 | | YouRang: <whatthefat><Perhaps, but that's not clearly stated anywhere, it's your interpretation of the text.> True, it my interpretation. But we may differ only in how "clearly stated" it needs to be. If nothing else, the sharp transition in Romans 3:21, introducing righteousness by faith and subsequent freedom from God's wrath, suggests that the preceeding section (about our lack of righteousness and how we are facing God's wrath) is in the *absence* of righteousness by faith. <Instead we have an absolute statement> Well, absolute only within the proper context.
<Right, but I think it's very important to note that he then intervenes with this statement:<What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[b]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.> There is no qualifier - those of faith are not excluded, it applies to *everybody* (Jews and Gentiles alike).> Paul's point (in verse 9) is that Jews have no advantage over Gentiles when it comes to righteousness apart from faith. I think the exclusion of "those of faith" is seen in the broader context, as described above. |
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| Apr-20-10 | | whatthefat: <YouRang: <Instead we have an absolute statement> Well, absolute only within the proper context.> I have to disagree on this one. If Paul's intended meaning of <There is no one righteous, not even one> was that "Without faith, one cannot be righteous", then: 1) It's a terribly unclear way of stating it. If these are God's words, then God is in serious need of an Editor. 2) What is one to make of the rest of the statement: <there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God> ? If he is referring to those without faith then this is completely pointless - by definition one who is without faith is not seeking God. |
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| Apr-20-10 | | YouRang: <whatthefat> <I have to disagree on this one.> I certainly don't mind a difference of opinion here.
Paul's style, particularly in Romans, can be difficult to follow. He is like a lawyer, who in the process of laying out his case, is presenting both opposing arguments and rebuttals. One often has to go back quite a ways and follow his train of thought forward to get the context for which a given passage makes sense. As I stated earlier, this apparent contradiction makes sense when viewed in the broader context -- or at least in my opinion it does. When Paul says <There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God> (actually quoting from Psalms) he is describing (again, by my interpretation) the natural condition of *all* people. That is, no one -- not even Noah or any other person of faith -- is intrinsically righteous. However, through faith, God is willing to reckon people as righteous -- in essence granting righteousness as a gift. As you correctly point out, this raises the question: "How can it be that someone in the natural state of *not seeking God* comes to have faith?". That is another matter, and one of much theological debate. Some say that faith itself is a gift by God, based on Ephesians 2:8 <For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God> |
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| Apr-20-10 | | cormier: yep we have all sin, but Jesus has paid and he has prayed for us ... He is the love, whichever love we got(give, cares, works ...) for ourself and any other(s).... It's Him! ps. He ain't divide, He is Unity in Love ..... thx |
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| Apr-20-10 | | cormier: ask and receive.....thx! one has all to gain because it's in fact, free(already paid for) |
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| Apr-20-10 | | cormier: Be my rock of refuge,
a stronghold to give me safety.
You are my rock and my fortress;
for your name’s sake you will lead and guide me.
Into your hands I commend my spirit;
you will redeem me, O LORD, O faithful God.
My trust is in the LORD;
I will rejoice and be glad of your mercy.
Let your face shine upon your servant;
save me in your kindness.
You hide them in the shelter of your presence
from the plottings of men.
Into your hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit. Alleluia. |
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| Apr-20-10 | | 0003: With one accord, the crowds paid attention to what was said by Philip
when they heard it and saw the signs he was doing.
For unclean spirits, crying out in a loud voice,
came out of many possessed people,
and many paralyzed and crippled people were cured.
There was great joy in that city. |
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| Apr-20-10 | | cormier: anyone knows about the Good Sheepheard and the # of heards He's got .....thx |
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| Apr-21-10 | | cormier: Shout joyfully to God, all the earth,
sing praise to the glory of his name;
proclaim his glorious praise.
Say to God, “How tremendous are your deeds!”
“Let all on earth worship and sing praise to you,
sing praise to your name!”
Come and see the works of God,
his tremendous deeds among the children of Adam.
He has changed the sea into dry land;
through the river they passed on foot;
therefore let us rejoice in him.
He rules by his might forever.
Let all the earth cry out to God with joy.
Alleluia |
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| Apr-21-10 | | cormier: Everything that the Father gives me will come to me,
and I will not reject anyone who comes to me,
because I came down from heaven not to do my own will
but the will of the one who sent me.
And this is the will of the one who sent me,
that I should not lose anything of what he gave me,
but that I should raise it on the last day.
For this is the will of my Father,
that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him
may have eternal life,
and I shall raise him on the last day.” |
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Apr-21-10
 | | OhioChessFan: <whatthefat: <OCF> responded to this by pointing out that the translated word used for "heaven" is different in each case (it is "shamayim" in the first case, and "ouranos" in the second), and that "shamayim" can have multiple meanings. He said: > <<shamayim> ... can mean "sky", or it can mean "heaven". Ball's in your court to prove this usage means "heaven".> To be fair, I didn't cite them as two different words. I was aware they were two different languages under consideration. I just hadn't gotten around to that point yet. In general, the difference between Hebrew and Greek is the source of a lot of alleged contradictions when citing one verse from the Old Testament and one from the New Testament. I won't call foul on that point in this case. <I mistakenly assumed both "shamayim" and "ouranos" were Hebrew words, when in fact the latter is Greek, so this is not a simple matter of mistranslation of sky into heaven. The word heaven in the English translation of the Bible appears 577 times, and in almost every case it is derived from either "shamayim" or "ouranos". > That's fine. It doesn't change the fact the very same word in Hebrew is used for both the sky and for heaven. <Without mankind having yet ventured into the skies, it was commonly believed (not just by Christians but also in other mythologies) that God resided in the sky - hence the use of this word. If you look at other passages, the word "shamayim" is in fact clearly used to mean heaven. For example, Yahweh is said to live in "shamayim" in Psalm 2:4, 11:4 and 14:2.> Yahweh lives in heaven. Yahweh lives in the sky. Either is fine by any appeal to a Hebrew dictionary. The context must determine which definition is correct. |
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Apr-21-10
| | OhioChessFan: <whatthefat: Additionally, Elijah is prophesied to return, and even claimed by Jesus to have returned as John the Baptist (although this is directly contradicted by John the Baptist). From where was he returning all this time later if not Heaven?> Hades. Maybe. I think the reference to the return of Elijah is a euphemistic statement. I understand you may accuse me of appealing to such a lot, but on the other hand, I would suggest you are referencing only those occasions where the Bible does speak figuratively. Of course, in all the pages of the Bible, there are going to be such figurative references. Many websites delight in going and finding all of them, which in % terms isn't that great, and citing all of them. In sheer numbers, they might look like a lot, but in fact as a significant portion of the Bible, they aren't that numerous. |
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Apr-21-10
| | OhioChessFan: Per the Genesis chapter 1 and chapter 2 issue, Genesis chapter 1 is very clearly a chronologically ordered account. Chapter 2 is a summary, recap, etc, and clearly does not use the same definitive language as chapter 1. |
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| Apr-21-10 | | cormier: The Spirit said to Philip,
“Go and join up with that chariot.”
Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said,
“Do you understand what you are reading?”
He replied,
“How can I, unless someone instructs me?”
So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.
This was the Scripture passage he was reading:
Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who will tell of his posterity?
For his life is taken from the earth.
Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply,
“I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this?
About himself, or about someone else?”
Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this Scripture passage,
he proclaimed Jesus to him. |
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Apr-22-10
| | OhioChessFan: After giving some thought to the challenge raised about when the prophecy of Cyrus was written, that is, was it written before the existence of Cyrus, I have had a change of heart. I first intended to find some outside verifiable source. It then hit me that would amount to reinventing the wheel. So I will suggest to <whatthefat> that though at first blush it seems a legitimate challenge, it's not. I will not bother to pursue the matter, since the same challenge can be raised against each and every prophecy of the Bible. If you are not satisfied that through the course of history the experts haven't already had a look at the matter, then there is surely nothing I could add that would satisfy you. All I could really do is appeal to some expert, and I am convinced that "some" experts have already addressed it. |
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| Apr-22-10 | | cormier: Isaiah 13:17-22 described it as "Babylon, fairest of kingdoms, proud beauty of the Chaldeans" It contained one of the seven wonders of the world: the hanging gardens of Babylon, which Nebuchadnezzar build for his Queen. Both a passage in Isaiah and Jeremiah 51:37-43 prophesized that Babylon would be destroyed and never occupied again. The prophecy was partly correct: <the city was destroyed. But part of it has been inhabited in recent years. It is now being rebuilt by the Government of Iraq.> |
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| Apr-22-10 | | cormier: Daniel: The wise leaders will shine like the bright vault of heaven, and those who have guarded the people in the true path will be like the stars for ever and ever |
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| Apr-22-10 | | cormier: New International Version (©1984)
In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in a vision. |
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| Apr-22-10 | | cormier: Daniel 1 7. Unto whom the prince of the eunuchs gave names for <he gave unto Daniel the name of Belteshazzar>; and to Hananiah. of Shadrach; and to Mishael, of Meshach; and to Azariah, of Abednego. |
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| Apr-22-10 | | whatthefat: <OCF>
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. While we're clearly still not in agreement, I appreciate it. |
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| Apr-22-10 | | cormier: Bless our God, you peoples,
loudly sound his praise;
He has given life to our souls,
and has not let our feet slip.
Hear now, all you who fear(respect) God, while I declare
what he has done for me.
When I appealed to him in words,
praise was on the tip of my tongue.
Blessed be God who refused me not
my prayer or his kindness!
Let all the earth cry out to God with joy.
Alleluia. |
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| Apr-22-10 | | cormier: <They shall all be taught by God>. Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.
Not that anyone has seen the Father
except the one who is from God;
he has seen the Father.
Amen, amen, I say to you,
whoever believes has eternal life.
I am the bread of life.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven;
whoever eats this bread will live forever;
and the bread that I will give
is my Flesh for the life of the world.” |
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