|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 766 OF 914 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Feb-08-16 | | Jim Bartle: Awards voting can be so ridiculous. I found myself looking at the 1962 NL MVP vote. Henry Aaron, .323, 1.008 OPS, 127 runs, 136 RBIs, 45 HRs Frank Robinson, .342, 1.045 OPS, 134 runs, 136 RBIs, 39 HRs Tommy Davis, .346, .910 OPS, 120 runs, 153 RBIs, 27 HRs Willie Mays, .304, .999 OPS, 130 runs, 141 RBIs, 49 HRs, and the Giants won the pennant. Four fantastic years, each worthy of the award.
The winner was Maury Wills: .299, .720 OPS, 130 runs, 48 RBIs, 6 HRs. So Wills won despite being far weaker in all the main categories except runs scored, where he scored basically the same number as the other four. The others were outfielders while he played shortstop, a more important and difficult position. But he was not a particularly good shortstop, really just average. He won because he stole 104 bases, plain and simple. But what is the value of a stolen base? It increases the chance of scoring a run, and Wills did not score more runs than the others. There is no way he was more valuable than any of the other four. |
|
Feb-08-16
 | | WannaBe: During post Super Bowl interview, P. Manning mentioned Budweiser and Bud Light, and here's why: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-p... |
|
Feb-10-16
 | | Phony Benoni: <JB> The voters in 1962 probably did overreact to Wills' record performance, but I wouldn't denigrate the award because it was based on stolen bases rather than Traditional Triple Crown numbers. Different teams need different players to succeed, and it's a mistake to say that any set of criteria always indicate the most valuable player in any situation. Which is not to say I don't think Tommy Davis had a better case for MVP that year. But how many of those 153 RBIs were due to Wills being on second base all the time? I wonder what would have happened had the Giants and Dodgers switched shortstops (Jose Pagan for Wills). The Dodgers would certainly not have contended. But would the Giants been improved significantly? There wouldn't have been as much need for Wills to run all the time, so his contribution might have gone down. |
|
Feb-10-16
 | | WannaBe: <Phony Benoni> Never knew that SFG had another Pagan until I saw your post, according to baseball reference's page, there are three Pagans listed. Angel, Jose, and Dave. Go figure. |
|
Feb-10-16
 | | Phony Benoni: <WannaBe> There are no atheists in dugouts. Especially when Koufax was pitching. |
|
| Feb-10-16 | | Jim Bartle: <pb> I would agree with your point if Wills had scored significantly more runs than the other players did. The only value of stealing a base (aside from staying out of a double play, a minor advantag) is to score more runs. Wills scored a very high 130 runs. But Mays scored the same number and Robinson scored more. So where was Wills better? Now this is more subjective, but an NL umpire said Jim Gilliam took a lot of pitches he could have hit in order to let Wills steal. I certainly think it is bad strategy to intentionally take a pitch because a player is stealing. You only get a few pitches and if there's one that's hittable you have to swing at it. |
|
| Feb-10-16 | | Jim Bartle: Jose Pagan was the Giants' shortstop in the early 60s. Pretty ordinary, as was second baseman Chuck Hiller, but he did get MVP votes in 1962. Giantss had another pretty good infielder in those years named Joey Amalfitano, but he didn't hit. He was selected by Houston in the expansion draft, then the Giants traded Manny Mota to get him back. Angel Pagan is of course one of the greatest baseball names ever. |
|
| Feb-10-16 | | Jim Bartle: I understand the sentiment, and I know players didn't want to be embarrassed by Koufax. I remember Cubs pinch hitters were trying to hide in the bottom of the ninth to avoid having to "hit" in the 9th of his perfect game. But the manager found Harvey Kuenn. But players didn't physically fear hitting against Koufax, because he never threw at anyone. Maybe he would have been even better if he had. The story runs that the Marichal attack on Roseboro occurred because the Dodgers were upset with Marichal but Koufax didn't want to throw at him. So Roseboro threw the return throws to the mound past Marichal's ear instead, and that's what got him so upset. |
|
Feb-10-16
 | | WannaBe: Re: Angel Pagan, yes, if you pronounce his name as "English Way". Me and my friends down at the watering hole always have fun when he's at the plate. "There's that Angel non-believer guy hitting again." =)) Amalfitano and Mota, of course, are two of (most) beloved Dodgers, in my book. That Marichal/Roseboro story is true, at least from all the articles I read/posted here on the anniversary of the incident. (Think I posted it last year, at this forum, too lazy to go back and dig the link up) |
|
| Feb-10-16 | | Jim Bartle: <Angel Pagan, yes, if you pronounce his name as "English Way".> It's "pagano" in Spanish. Not much difference. |
|
Feb-11-16
 | | Phony Benoni: <JB> Well, Mays had a head start in the run scoring department because of his 45 extra home runs. In fact, the list of single season run scorers shows that, since 1900, the sluggers like Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, Williams and the like predominate. You don't see a lot of lead-off hitters surpassing Wills' 130. Rickey Henderson, for one, but he was also hitting 20+ home runs in addition to stealing bases. The key to big run scoring totals seems to be power, and getting on base a lot with good hitters behind you. Wills had do make do with speed. But I'm not going to win any stat battle here. Wills probably won because of his record, but the idea should be honoring the player with the greatest positive impact on his team's success. That's why there are occasional statistical anomalies, like Kirk Gibson in 1988. An MVP who couldn't even make the All-Star team? Or Marty Marion in 1944?
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/... |
|
| Feb-11-16 | | Jim Bartle: So you're suggesting Musial was a better choice? |
|
Feb-11-16
 | | WannaBe: Mich. St. Univ. player awarded "Best Name":
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebask... Gonna name my son Arnoldschwarnegger |
|
Feb-11-16
 | | WannaBe: Sports book expect SFG to be the team to beat in 2016: http://espn.go.com/chalk/story/_/id... |
|
Feb-11-16
 | | Phony Benoni: Of course the SFG are the team to beat in 2016. Them and 28 others. |
|
Feb-12-16
 | | keypusher: I'm in Dallas for work, and by coincidence there's a chess tournament going on at the hotel. I was watching some of the games last night, and I noticed a young girl, looked about 12, playing a man in his 20s on one of the lower boards. She was down the exchange in the early going. "Poor girl," I thought, "she's losing already" and went off to look at other games. I came back later and thought, "hey, it doesn't look quite so bad." I came back later and realized she was winning, thanks to some impressive positional chess. I finally thought to check the pairings. Turns out her name is Akshita Gorti and she's rated about 2250. This is a very strong tournament. A few GMs, IMs, etc. This page seemed like the right page to post about it given all Phony has done to compile US tournament collections. |
|
Feb-12-16
 | | WannaBe: <keypusher> You're in Dallas instead of Northeast and freezing?! And a chess tournament to boot! Lucky you!! |
|
Feb-12-16
 | | WannaBe: New pitchers' protective head gear:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/1... |
|
Feb-12-16
 | | Phony Benoni: The only gear guaranteed to protect pitcher's heads: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images... <Keypusher> That was one lucky chess tournament. Most of the hotels I stayed at during tournaments booked weddings, brass bands, or Beatlemania Conventions. |
|
| Feb-12-16 | | Jim Bartle: <The only gear guaranteed to protect pitcher's heads:> Or just face the 1965 Dodgers. |
|
Feb-12-16
 | | Phony Benoni: Hey, some of those bunts were pretty darn vicious! Especially the ones that made it as far as the pitch. |
|
Feb-13-16
 | | keypusher: <<wannabe> You're in Dallas instead of Northeast and freezing?! And a chess tournament to boot!
Lucky you!!>
Unfortunately I'm back in the big city already and it's COLD. First time I had seen a tournament since I met you in Las Vegas back in 2008. Where do the years go? |
|
| Feb-15-16 | | Jim Bartle: I looked at a Cubs box score from 1962. First six hitters: Brock
Hubbs
Williams
Banks
Altman
Santo
That's three Hall of Famers, one HOF candidate, one up and coming star who died young. Yet the team was at the bottom of the league in runs scored, and went 59-103, behind the first-year team the Houston Colt .45s. |
|
Feb-16-16
 | | Phony Benoni: Altman had a decent year,leading the team in hitting and stealing more baes than Brock (19 to 16). It was his last really good year, though. |
|
| Feb-16-16 | | Jim Bartle: I don't know. I think Brock had several more good years. |
|
 |
 |
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 766 OF 914 ·
Later Kibitzing> |