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| Apr-19-11 | | Jim Bartle: Watching Yankees-Toronto game, and a scoring question: One out, man on second for Toronto. Bouncer to the mound, and the pitcher has the runner trapped off second. He runs toward the runner, then makes a bad throw to Jeter at second and the runner heads to third. All safe. No error was announced, but really, there has to be an error on either the pitcher or Jeter. My question is, what if the pitcher had the runner trapped, but threw poorly to third, giving the runner time to get back to second. Error or just a fielder's choice? |
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| Apr-19-11 | | YouRang: <My question is, what if the pitcher had the runner trapped, but threw poorly to third, giving the runner time to get back to second.> Pretty sure it would be a fielder's choice. |
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Apr-19-11
 | | Phony Benoni: Here's Wikipedia's take on it. Not quite completely clear: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fielde...
What I understand is that the fielder's choice accounts for the batter's reaching base or advancing, not the runner. So, in the game situation, I would take it the scoring should be fielder's choice allowing the batter to reach first, and an error allowing the runner to reach third. Had the runner not advanced, a straight fielder's choice. |
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Apr-19-11
| | Phony Benoni: Hmm. Looking at the play-by-play:
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/gametr... No errors are mentioned for the Yankees, but there's one in the "game tracker". Maybe this was another "changed later" decision? |
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| Apr-19-11 | | Jim Bartle: From the recap: "Pickoff attempt to first, Ball, Bautista to second on wild pitch, Foul, Lind reached on fielder's choice to pitcher, Bautista to third." I don't understand that. Had the pitcher (Burnett) just kept the runner at second instead of throwing to first I could understand. As it turned it, his only "choice" was to let the batter reach and the runner advance. |
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Apr-19-11
| | Phony Benoni: It's possible that play-by-play recap is not updated retrospectively. I'll check other sources tomorrow. |
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| Apr-19-11 | | Jim Bartle: According to cnnsi.com:
"Lind safe on fielder's choice and throwing error by pitcher A.J.Burnett, Bautista to third, Lind to first." Jays win 6-5 in 10, scoring two in the ninth off Rivera to tie. |
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Apr-19-11
| | Phony Benoni: OK, that settles that. Now I can get a good night's sleep. |
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Apr-20-11
 | | perfidious: The best-known game I had the privilege of attending was this one:
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/... |
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| Apr-20-11 | | Jim Bartle: Ah, nobody even hit the ball in that game. |
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| Apr-20-11 | | playground player: When obsession with scoring and statistics gets out of hand: I was coaching first base during a softball game and the batter, having hit the ball into a gap in the outfield, where it was temporarily bobbled, instead of going on to second base or even third... stopped at first to ask me whether he would get credit for a clean hit, or see his batting average go down if the play was scored an error! Aaagh! I wonder if this ever happens at higher levels of play. |
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Apr-20-11
| | Phony Benoni: <perfidious> The wind must have been swirling around home plate. <playground player> Players have been known to lobby the official scorer to change a decision for their benefit, but they generally wait until the play is over. I have yet to see one give the scorer's box a nasty look while running the bases. There is probably a home field effect here. And I have seen decisions on hit vs. error go the pitcher's way if it's the first hit of the game. Here's a reference to a notorious example: http://books.google.com/books?id=17... |
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Apr-20-11
| | perfidious: <playground player: I wonder if this ever happens at higher levels of play.> From another Red Sox game, Clemens starting, long ago: a ball was hit to Boggs at third and initially ruled a hit. After the game, the scorer changed the play to E5, which was significant because the opponents had scored three (I think) runs that inning, one of which thus became unearned. Turns out Clemens had wheedled and whined to the official scorer till getting his way, because of the effect on his ERA. <PhonyBenoni> Most interesting-not sure whether I'd read about the Brett near-miss. My roommate and I sat in one of the roof boxes that cool April night; as I used to work less than a mile from Fenway, I'd often walk to the park and pick up tickets at the gate, which is all but impossible to do nowadays, but had no trouble doing for that game. For games in Fenway, it's now problematic whether one can even get them. |
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| Apr-20-11 | | Jim Bartle: That was the Boggs play I was referring to above, but I guess it was actually Clemens who did the complaining. |
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| Apr-20-11 | | takchess: yes. And I remember a day siting in a college dorm room with my fellow Red Sox fans watching the final game of the season and someone saying: I can't see how Bucky Dent gets any power holding the bat like that...... |
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| Apr-21-11 | | Jim Bartle: Albert Pujols has 408 home runs and 1230 RBIs after ten years in the majors. Where do those numbers stand all time? |
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Apr-21-11
| | Phony Benoni: For home runs, he's #1:
1. Albert Pujols 408
2. Eddie Mathews 370
3. Ralph Kiner 369
4. Ken Griffey Jr. 350
5. Alex Rodriguez 345
6. Hank Aaron 342
7. Ernie Banks 335
8. Frank Robinson 324
9. Ted Williams 323
10. Mickey Mantle 320
I haven't been able to find a similar list for RBIs, but he's not #1. Ted Williams, for one, had 1261 his first ten years. |
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| Apr-21-11 | | Jim Bartle: I see that Gehrig had around 1400 RBIs in his first ten years, if you don't include his first two years when he only had a few at-bats. These "first five" "first ten" lists are always skewed by players with just a few games for a couple of seasons before becoming regulars. Funny to see that Aaron is the only one of the overall top four to be on the 10-year list. Ruth was pitching, Bonds wasn't a big-time homer hitter at first, and I Mays just didn't make it. Rodriguez has 613, or maybe more now. Where will he end up? |
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Apr-21-11
| | Phony Benoni: Mays had 319. He was hurt by the 1952 season, when he played only a few games before succumbing to the draft. Here's another interesting list I found while looking around: most starts by a pitcher in their first ten years since 1901. Before looking, you might want to guess how many of the top fifty are primarily from the Dead Ball Era (1901-1920): http://www.baseball-reference.com/b... |
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| Apr-21-11 | | Jim Bartle: Oops, I looked. What surprised me is only one from the 20s and 30s (Derringer) in the top 20. And, you know, Don Sutton? |
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Apr-21-11
| | Phony Benoni: It surprised me too, and seems to indicate that the modern way of using starters tends to help their long-term durability. The 20s and 30s were not good decades for pitchers. |
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Apr-21-11
| | perfidious: <Phony Benoni:Here's another interesting list I found while looking around: most starts by a pitcher in their first ten years since 1901.> One feature of interest from that list, buried amidst all the numbers, is the number of games finished: this emphasises the immense difference between the early days, when the best starters went every fourth day and often relieved between starts, and the modern game. As we'd discussed Lefty Grove's fabulous 1931 season, here's another number; if my memory hasn't totally failed me, six of his 31 wins came in relief. Re Pujols: here's a link on the Cards and their attendance. http://www.stltoday.com/sports/base... Any guesses what happens if King Albert walks? Cards fans are as loyal as any, but that may well be tested if he takes a hike. |
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| Apr-21-11 | | Jim Bartle: My understanding is that during the Dead Ball era pitchers didn't throw as hard as they could all the time, only when "in a pinch," as Mathewson would say. It worked as there was little chance of a home run, so pitchers lasted longer. |
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Apr-21-11
| | Phony Benoni: <perfidious> Here's an analysis of Grove's Starting/Relief pitching in 1931. 11 relief appearances with 10 games finished, 5 saves, and a 4-1 record. http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/... |
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Apr-21-11
| | perfidious: If Grove hadn't pitched against the Yankees, his pure ERA would have been right up there with the greatest from the deadball era; as it was, pitching in that high-scoring period, a 2.06 ERA was scary, with his ERA+ being 220. It's interesting, but not really surprising, to note that his closest similarity score is 863; without doing an analysis, I would venture to say that the greatest players will generally not have anyone within 900. One of the all-time great seasons by a pitcher. |
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