< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 41 OF 127 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Oct-04-13 | | Karpova: I will write Game Collection: WCC: Steinitz-Gunsberg 1890 |
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Oct-04-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> I think whatever Capablanca called it would be the best choict. That said, either choice is correct for sure. It's your call. |
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Oct-04-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: Of course, the best "choict" is up to you. |
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Oct-04-13
 | | OhioChessFan: <The institution Capablanca left was the Columbia University. Would <college> nonetheless be correct?> Yes. |
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Oct-04-13 | | Karpova: Okay, so then <college> in Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Capablanca 1921 |
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Oct-04-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: It is... DECIDED!
<college> it is then. Here is an audiovisual aid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ez5... |
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Oct-04-13
 | | OhioChessFan: Game Collection: WCC: FIDE WCC Tournament 1948 < and negotiations began between Moscow and Mr. du Mont, editor of the "British Chess Magazine." On 22 March 1946 Alekhine received a telegram from the British Chess Federation, informing him that match conditions had been agreed to..> There needs to be some explanation/transition between du Mont and the BCF. I know that is tough to pull off without being really wordy over a small point, but perhaps "and negotiations began between Moscow and British Chess Federation representative Mr. du Mont (What, he doesn't have a first name?), editor of the "British Chess Magazine." On 22 March 1946, Alekhine received a telegram from the BCF, informing him that match conditions had been agreed to." Maybe a bit cheesy to use "BCF" but a 3 letter acronym to save 2 words and 19 letters total strikes me as worth it. If that seems too colloquial, "from the British delegation" might be a decent compromise. |
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Oct-04-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <OhioI'mGoingToGetToTheBottomOfThisFan> It's absolutely not a small point. It's a point that hasn't been stated clearly before in one source (to my knowledge), so it's of the utmost importance that we get this right. Look how much we didn't know before you started insisting on knowing the full story. We have to do more than just shift data from one place to another, we have to work hard to figure out what actually happened, and why, and then present that to the reader. We need the full logic of events here for the rest of the story to make sense. I appreciate your nothing less than heroic effort in this cause. Let's try a few of your suggestions out.
For starters, it's <Julius du Mont>, a fact Botvinnik may never actually have known, or else had forgotten when he wrote his autobiography. Luckily the "word counter" only counts words, not letters, so we don't add any words by replacing "Mr." with "Julius." Also Jinx- I like your idea of including the "British Chess Magazine." I had a draft with that in earlier, and then thought to myself then I have to shorten "British Chess Federation" to "BCF" and maybe people won't know what that is, or think we made a typo trying to write "BCM." What about the Full Monty?
I think there's a way to bridge the "information gap" between du Mont and Derbyshire, BCM and BCF, without guessing, because we don't know for sure how that torch was passed, or when, for that matter. We could just stick to the facts we know.
"At this point the BCF had taken over the negotiations," or "By this time the BCF was handling the negotiations." Please think on this while I try to work out a new paragraph. Back in a bit... |
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Oct-04-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio> what about this? Only 8 more words than were there before: "Before war broke out in 1939, Mikhail Botvinnik had been negotiating a title match with Alexander Alekhine to be played in Moscow. In 1946 Botvinnik renewed his challenge. After Alekhine was accused of Nazi collaboration, the Soviets were reluctant to hold the match in Moscow or to negotiate directly with Alekhine. Botvinnik suggested the match move to London, and negotiations began between Moscow and Julius du Mont, editor of the "British Chess Magazine." On 22 March 1946 Alekhine received a telegram from the British Chess Federation, who were now handling the negotiations. <The telegram stated> that match conditions had been agreed to. Alekhine died the next day." And think of <They informed him> as an option- though I think the repetition of "telegram" is more precise. No word count difference. Any suggestions welcome. |
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Oct-04-13
 | | OhioChessFan: Who says Alekhine received the telegram?
I think there's still a lack of nexus between London and the BCF conducting negotiations. I am reminded of Lincoln's response to a question about how long the perfect soldier's legs should be. The probably apocryphal answer was "long enough to reach the ground." How long should this intro be? Long enough to reasonably explain all pertinent information. |
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Oct-04-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Francisco Lupi> says Alekhine received the telegram. I have the source for that. He was with Alekhine in Estoril when this happened. Unfortunately, we have no further information on why or where negotiations passed from <du Mont BCM> to <Derbyshire BCF>. |
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Oct-04-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: It might be time to send out the "Bat Signal" to colleagues, in hope that one of them has materials that answer the question eh? |
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Oct-04-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: Ok here is the draft prior to Bat Signal- I also want to look further on my own on this vexing issue: "Before war broke out in 1939, Mikhail Botvinnik had been negotiating a title match with Alexander Alekhine to be played in Moscow. In 1946 Botvinnik renewed his challenge. After Alekhine was accused of Nazi collaboration, the Soviets were reluctant to hold the match in Moscow or to negotiate directly with Alekhine. Botvinnik suggested the match move to London, and negotiations began between Moscow and Julius du Mont, editor of the "British Chess Magazine." According to Francisco Lupi, on 22 March 1946 Alekhine received a telegram from the British Chess Federation, who were now handling the negotiations. The telegram stated that match conditions had been agreed to. Alekhine died the next day." |
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Oct-04-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: In the event we can't find the answer to the mystery question, I'll have to put an explanatory footnote after "who were now handling the negotiations."
The note would explain that we can't find the explanation for why negotiating duties passed from <du Mont> to <Derbyshire>. In terms of finding the answer, I think the "British Chess Magazine" itself would be a good place to look. |
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Oct-04-13
 | | OhioChessFan: In 1939, Botvinnik was doing the negotiating. In 1946, there was a passing of authority to "the Soviets". That should be addressed. |
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Oct-04-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio> That's complicated. Botvinnik wasn't doing anything, ever, without the authority and explicit prior permission from the Soviet government. That didn't mean the government wouldn't agree or wouldn't act on some of his suggestions. But final say on everything in this matter lay with Moscow, not Mikhail. On other news, I have indeed found more information. Our paragraph in its present form has some factual errors. Back in a bit... |
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Oct-04-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio> To be more precise- <Botvinnik> opened negotiations with <Alekhine> at AVRO 1938 ("Before war broke out in 1939"). But he didn't do this without first securing permission to do so. |
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Oct-04-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: Right.
The intro is accurate up to here (at least according to Botvinnik): <Before war broke out in 1939, Mikhail Botvinnik had been negotiating a title match with Alexander Alekhine to be played in Moscow. In 1946 Botvinnik renewed his challenge. After Alekhine was accused of Nazi collaboration, the Soviets were reluctant to hold the match in Moscow or to negotiate directly with Alekhine. Botvinnik suggested the match move to London, and negotiations began between Moscow and Julius du Mont, editor of the "British Chess Magazine."> The next part has to be rewritten, and not just for better explaining the logic of the story. The previous version had factual errors. Back in a bit... |
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Oct-04-13
 | | OhioChessFan: <<Botvinnik> opened negotiations with <Alekhine> at AVRO 1938 ("Before war broke out in 1939"). But he didn't do this without first securing permission to do so.> Of course. And if the Soviets weren't thrilled with Moscow, then Moscow it wasn't. But, that needs to be noted. And would they be Soviets in 1939? |
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Oct-04-13
 | | OhioChessFan: I guess that officially, they were. Just wondering about the word usage at that time. |
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Oct-04-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: Yes, in 1939 country was "Soviet Union." |
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Oct-04-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: Word usage probably "Sovjet"!
heh
Seriously though there appears to be something wrong with <Botvinnik's> account of the last stage of negotiations in 1946. There's a contradiction in the chronology from Mikhail himself that I have to investigate. There was also a gross factual error in the previous version of our intro. Alekhine did *not* die "the next day" after receiving a telegram from "Mr. Derbyshire." Bottom line: More research needed on two fronts. Luckily, I have nothing better to do. |
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Oct-04-13 | | Karpova: On Game Collection: WCC: Euwe-Alekhine Rematch 1937 Edward Winter, <Euwe and Alekhine on their 1937 Match>, http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... |
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Oct-04-13
 | | OhioChessFan: Game Collection: WCC: Fischer- Spassky 1972 <He earned the right to challenge Boris Spassky in a title run without comparison> I'm not sure what "without comparison" means, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen the phrase before. <Now the stage was set, and the only thing standing between Fischer and Spassky was Fischer himself.> This is pretty fluffy. Even allowing for fluff, it would be more correct to say the only thing standing between Fischer and the WCC was Fischer himself. And I'd be at a loss to source such an opinion. I'm guessing a lot of Spassky supporters sort of liked their man's chances. <British chess promoter James Slater donated a dazzling $125,000 to be added to the prize fund.> Dazzling? What, it was shiny gold coins?
<and one famously persuasive telephone call from Henry Kissinger.> It was famous and Kissinger tried to be persuasive, but it wasn't famously persuasive. <On July 11th, the "Match of the Century" had begun. > began
<This turned out to be a huge psychological mistake by Spassky. > Who says? |
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Oct-04-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio>
Game Collection: WCC: Fischer- Spassky 1972 <"Without comparison"> is unusual as an adjective phrase in English. I've never seen it before as it appears in the intro. It sounds like a clumsy version of a well known French adjective phrase which means something similar= "Sans pareil" (without parallel).
I looked at your other finds- the factual error on <Kissinger's> call leaps out at you, doesn't it? I also looked at your finds on unsourced opinions, which pepper the text. This article is rubbish. It would literally have been better simply to copy and paste portions of the Wikipedia entry for this event. I'm wiping it.
Again, it will be re-written from a blank sheet of white. |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 41 OF 127 ·
Later Kibitzing> |