< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 74 OF 127 ·
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Feb-28-14
 | | OhioChessFan: I don't mind the 7 words identifying Evans and Timman since that shows it's not your normal brand of crank. |
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Feb-28-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: Heh...
crank...
Ok I got you now.
I think "some" is still better than "some observers." It's a pretty common idiom- "Some, including _______" Hmm actually I just checked with GOOGLE ADVANCED SEARCH and it seems the idiom is more common with a subject noun after the word "some," as you say. ok then.
"Some observers" is "catch of the day" in my view.
I'll change it after my eyes are open. |
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Feb-28-14 | | Karpova: <Jess: "Some observers" is "catch of the day" in my view.> I would suggest something more neutral like <experts>, as <observers> implies that they were present, which is unlikely in the case of Timman. And Evans cannot be trusted even if he was present - R Quesada Sr vs Prins, 1952 - and so I think it is also good in general to not mention his name in an Intro, if it can be avoided. |
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Feb-28-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: hehe good point on the "Evans Factor."
There are two other names I can put in, though I'm somewhat reluctant to label <Hans Ree> an "expert" due to his penchant for not doing even minimal research before he writes anything. I already identified at least three errors in his introduction to the new English translation of <Dr. Euwe's> book on <The Hague-Moscow 1948>. I will find proper experts to list. There are at least two, I think. But if it comes down to it, yes <Evans> is out, though <Ree> might stay in. |
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Feb-28-14 | | Karpova: <Jess>
Maybe not even <experts>, but perhaps <chess professionals>? Or something else, best would be neutral and maybe making clear the connection to chess. As Evans and Timman are meant, <chess professionals> should fit, but maybe also <chess authors>. Perhaps even <chess journalists>. My favorite is <chess authors>. |
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Feb-28-14
 | | OhioChessFan: <WorldCrankChampion> I don't like "experts". A great chess player isn't necessarily an expert on Soviet intrigue. "observers" has a generally accepted sense of observing history from afar, a pundit, etc. |
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Feb-28-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: Actually I don't like any of them so far.
What about "pundits"? |
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Feb-28-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: Oh wait that was just listed by <Ohio>. I like pundits, and not "chess pundits" either.
What other kind of pundit would it be?
It's a chess article. |
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Feb-28-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Clams>
I have (irritatingly) added the full bibliographical reference after each note in the mirror, because when I get back to Korea I'm going to add some new information from the new <Euwe> book, and this is the only way I can think of to keep sure track of the note numbers. I'll be gone for the next 50 hours or so.
Please continue to add any new edit ideas while I'm gone. |
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Feb-28-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: I'm coming back to liking "observers" more than pundits. An observer *is* a pundit in the sense of the sentence, as <Ohio> points out. Also, from the context/sense of the sentence, I think it's clear enough that "observers" doesn't signify contemporaneous observers. In fact, if you wanted "observers" in this sentence to mean contemporaneous observers, you'd actually have to add the adjective "contemporaneous" in order for the meaning to be clear. So, at present I like "Some observers" the best. |
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Feb-28-14 | | Boomie: <Some, including Larry Melvyn Evans and Jan Timman, charge that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win.> There doesn't appear to be any good way to indicate who made charges. <There has been speculation that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win.> I would like to add that the case for collaboration has not been proven. <However there is no proof that this took place.> |
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Feb-28-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: Thanks <Tim>.
So I was right before. 10 rounds in The Hague and 15 rounds in Moscow- because one player got a bye in each round. |
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Feb-28-14 | | Boomie: <Wiccan Coven Chief: So I was right before.> We was both right as usual. We are right for each other...heh. Have a happy flight back to squidland. |
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Feb-28-14 | | Boomie: <OCF: WaterClosetConnoisseur> Ha ha ha. You got with the program! |
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Mar-01-14 | | Karpova: On Game Collection: WCC: FIDE WCC Tournament 1948 Coming back again to <Some charge that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win.> I quote from your source: <I consider analysis potentially relevant, but by itself neither necessary nor
sufficient to establish coercion. I have consulted several very strong players, without finding consensus. Those who see the games as evidence of coercion include GMs Hans Ree and Jan Timman, as well as Evans. On the other hand, IM John Watson and GM John Nunn are on record to the opposite effect.> So Evans and Timman base their assertion on analysis of the games, other strong players disagree. Perhaps this should be made clear as chess analysis is never mentioned, which may create the impression that <some> had any other evidence. I also favor <chess players> now, as this the most neutral and accurate. What about something like: <Some chess players charge that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win, based on disputed analysis of the games.> ? |
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Mar-01-14
 | | OhioChessFan: <Karpova: What about something like: <Some chess players charge that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win, based on disputed analysis of the games.> ? > If that is the emphasis, I think the title should be trotted out, to separate such luminaries from the cranks one finds at Chessgames.com who are indeed chess players, but still cranks, eg "Some Grandmasters charge(d) (another issue but not right now) that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games...." |
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Mar-01-14
 | | OhioChessFan: <The Soviet Sports Committee refused this idea outright because they wanted all the games played in Moscow.> This is just unclear enough I think we should add a couple words, to wit, "all the games <to be> played in Moscow." Without "to be" there's a slight sense of something like them wanting scoresheets of all the games that have already been played in Moscow. This is a fairly small objection, and I don't think it's wrong as it stands, but is worth the two words for clarity. <The new conditions stated that the tournament would begin in spring 1948, be played in The Hague for 10 rounds and Moscow for 15 rounds> <The first 8 rounds were held in The Hague, followed by 12 rounds in Moscow. > I think some parenthetical mention of Fine's dropping out and the resultant number of rounds changing is in order. |
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Mar-01-14 | | Boomie: <OCF, Karpova>
"Some chess players..."
I assume my suggestion is not acceptable since both of you ignored it. To repeat, there is no good way to specify who made these charges and there is no reason we should try to name them. |
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Mar-01-14 | | Karpova: <Boomie>
Sorry for that! Maybe we could fuse the suggestions into something like: <There has been speculation based on disputed chess analysis, that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win. However, there is no proof that this took place.> or <There has been speculation based on chess analysis, that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win. However, there is no proof that this took place and the analysis (itself) has been disputed.> I think that it is worth clarifying that
a) the charges are based on analysis of the games
b) this analysis is being disputed
as the rest deals with statements by Keres and Botvinnik. So this is a completely different kind of "evidence". If we mention that the charges were based on analysis, we may even shorten the second sentence: <There has been speculation based on chess analysis, that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win. However, the analysis itself has been disputed.> If it is more elegant, the wording of Kingston could also be used, e. g. <There has been speculation inferred from the games, that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win. However, the analysis itself has been disputed.> Although, I do not like that part about speculation and prefer charges or suspicions. The speculations were always there, but the chess analysis seems to be the only thing coming close to something like "evidence", as there are no statements or documents supporting these suspicions. So maybe something like
<Suspicions have been raised inferred from the games, that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win. However, the chess analysis itself has been disputed.> |
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Mar-01-14 | | Boomie: <Karpova>
The comments by Botvinnik and Keres are suggestive that there was pressure but don't rise to the level of proof. Botvinnik claimed that Stalin suggested the other Russian players lose to him. However Botvinnik's statement that he refused to allow it is suspect as he probably didn't have the standing to refuse a request from Stalin and escape with his life. That puts the whole statement into question. Nevertheless, it is testimony. Keres statement was that if Botvinnik didn't win the title, it would not be due to Keres. Since Keres' head was perilously close to the chopping block after WWII, I have to think such a suggestion would have a profound effect on his play. From what I have read about Keres' character, I tend to believe his statement. Although neither statement rises to the level of proof, I think we should mention what they said or that they said something. There is no proof and probably never will be barring a surprise discovery in the Russian archives. <Suspicions have been raised, based on analysis of the games, that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win. However, this analysis has been disputed. Both Botvinnik and Keres made statements hinting at collusion to support Botvinnik. But their statements do not constitute proof.> |
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Mar-01-14
 | | perfidious: A word of caution: I knew Kingston in the 1990s, and his methods are not necessarily to be trusted, from the experience of a co-worker of his whom I knew, to my own experience of dealing with him. |
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Mar-01-14 | | Boomie: <perfidious: I knew Kingston> We aren't so much concerned about Kingston as with this article:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/skitt...
Do you have anything to add about the article? |
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Mar-02-14 | | Karpova: <Boomie>
This is already in the Intro - both statements of Keres and Botvinnik are actually quoted, but the the sentence we are discussing deals with Evans', Ree's and Timman's chess analysis. And I think that it would be good to make clear that we are talking about a different kind of "evidence" here. And that the chess analysis itself is not undisputed. The point is that we have
a) disputed chess analysis
b) statement by Keres (via Whyld)
c) statement by Botvinnik
But currently, point (a) is not made clear. So it looks as if these might be suspicions like (b) and (c), e. g. statements or documents. But it is something considerably different, namely the question when mistakes during play are suspicious or not. And in this case, only non-Soviet chess players are involved in the discussion (Timman, Evans and Ree vs Nunn and Watson). |
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Mar-02-14 | | Boomie: <Karpova: Karpova: This is already in the Intro - both statements of Keres and Botvinnik are actually quoted> Oops. Sorry. I blanked that out for some reason.
<disputed chess analysis not made clear> How can we be clearer than this?
<Suspicions have been raised, based on analysis of the games, that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win. However, this analysis has been disputed.> There is no way to determine if a weak move is by design or by accident. The whole notion of game analysis to determine collaboration is specious at best before the computer era. |
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Mar-02-14 | | Karpova: <Boomie>
I think your suggestion <Suspicions have been raised, based on analysis of the games, that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win. However, this analysis has been disputed.> looks fine. |
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