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Later Kibitzing> |
| Mar-02-14 | | Boomie: <Karpova: looks fine.> I might tweak it a bit for readability. <to throw games to help> sounds a little clunky to me. We have lots to time to work. |
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| Mar-02-14 | | Karpova: <Boomie: <to throw games to help> sounds a little clunky to me.> I do not like it too much either. Is there some ambiguity regarding the meaning or does <to throw games> simply mean <to lose on purpose>? |
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| Mar-02-14 | | Boomie: <Karpova: to throw games to help> <Is there some ambiguity regarding the meaning?> No. It just seems like bad style.
<does <to throw games> simply mean <to lose on purpose>?> Yes. But I think we should avoid idioms like "throw games". English is hard enough for non-speakers without idioms. |
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| Mar-02-14 | | Karpova: In this case, would <to lose on purpose>, <to lose intentionally> or <to lose deliberately> be better? |
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Mar-02-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio, Karpova>, <Tim>, <perfidious>, What a superb discussion, thank you so much! I like this version with "in order" added:
<Suspicions have been raised, based on analysis of the games, that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games <in order> to help Botvinnik win. However, this analysis has been disputed.> <Tim> "throw games" is the precise idiom for the job, and it's widely known. The addition of "in order" just makes the sentence smoother and a bit clearer for style. The genius of this solution is myriad. Clearly <Karpova> can look forward to a box of "Korean squid-flavored sugar frost cereal" in the mail for coming up with this. 1. We can just cite <Taylor Kingsford's> articles to source the paragraph. If punters want to know more details, they can simply read all three <Kingsford> articles. That's more than enough. This is an intro meant to discuss the entire event, not to get deeply into the controversy. 2. The solution doesn't mix apples and oranges- after this introductory paragraph, we could find a nice segue into what <Keres> and <Botvinnik> had to say directly about this throwing games business. The "horse's mouths," so to speak. They should have the last word anyways, and <Mighty Mike> certainly deserves the very last word- he became world chess champion and I'm sure that he worked very hard to do so. I'm going to put this in the mirror, but not while I'm asleep (I'm still asleep). |
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Mar-02-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Smoked Oysters>
In case you were wondering, I asked <crawfb5> to delay submitting the <Lasker-Capablanca> draft until I got back to Korea. I'm back but I won't be awake until tomorrow. After work I will ask <crawfb5> to send Game Collection: WCC: Capablanca-Alekhine 1927 to <Daniel>. |
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Mar-02-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio>
<<The Soviet Sports Committee refused this idea outright because they wanted all the games played in Moscow.>
This is just unclear enough I think we should add a couple words, to wit, "all the games <to be> played in Moscow." Without "to be" there's a slight sense of something like them wanting scoresheets of all the games that have already been played in Moscow. This is a fairly small objection, and I don't think it's wrong as it stands, but is worth the two words for clarity.> Quite right. I'll change that now.
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<<The new conditions stated that the tournament would begin in spring 1948, be played in The Hague for 10 rounds and Moscow for 15 rounds><The first 8 rounds were held in The Hague, followed by 12 rounds in Moscow. > I think some parenthetical mention of Fine's dropping out and the resultant number of rounds changing is in order.> > Yes, that needs to be sorted along the lines of your suggestion. This will require thinking so I'll do it tomorrow. Some crank has attached all of the full reference listings after almost every sentence in the mirror, and I can't make out a thing at the moment. |
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Mar-02-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: Or maybe this:
<Suspicions have been raised, based on analysis of the games, that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to Botvinnik in order to help him win.> |
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Mar-02-14
 | | OhioChessFan: I think the suspicions were raised long before analysis of the games took place. |
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Mar-02-14
 | | OhioChessFan: <Some commentators quickly charged that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win. Subsequent analysis of the games, led by Evans and Timman, led to more claims of collusion. > |
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Mar-02-14
 | | OhioChessFan: I agree that "throw" is probably too colloquial. "purposely lose" seems preferable. |
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| Mar-02-14 | | Karpova: Due to the space restrictions, I'm not sure if it is necessary to specifically mention the vague speculations before. They were practically based on Botvinnik winning the tournament and having a good score against Keres, only. They probably gave rise to the chess analysis, but as only the latter constituted something like evidence in the widest sense, only the analysis needs to be mentioned. But it should be made clear, that even the analysis was disputed. At least, with the analysis there was some substance available that could be discussed. Maybe
<Suspicions have been raised, based on analysis of the games, that the Soviets pressured Keres to lose puposely to Botvinnik in order to help him win. However, this analysis has been disputed.> |
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Mar-02-14
 | | Chessical: I have been submitting material for Game Collection: WCC: Petrosian-Spassky 1969 to Biographer's Bistro, it is more convenient to place it here instead? |
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Mar-02-14
 | | OhioChessFan: Karpova suggests: <Suspicions have been raised, based on analysis of the games, that the Soviets pressured Keres to lose puposely to Botvinnik in order to help him win.> I'd like that to be more active and less wordy. And probably keeping it in the past tense would be better. Maybe <After analysis of the games, suspicions arose that the Soviets had pressured Keres to purposely lose to Botvinnik.> <However, this analysis has been disputed.> I don't like a "However" starting a sentence, but as it stands, I don't see many options. |
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Mar-02-14
 | | OhioChessFan: I think it would be great to post here <Chessical> Be sure to read the bio to find the rules instituted by the Forum Crank or she will cyber yell at you. |
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Mar-02-14
 | | OhioChessFan: I don't care for cliches, but "....suspicions arose in some quarters..." would seem to eliminate the need for the "However" sentence. The "However" sentence is a bit of an orphan anyway, even though the information imparted needs to be set forth. |
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Mar-02-14
 | | WCC Editing Project:
<Chessical>
Thank you! And yes it's best to post the <WCC> material in my forum, so I'll be sure not to miss it. Nobody will yell at you there, despite the warning of <OhioWarningFan>. I already added your new contributions to the mirror here: Game Collection: WCC: Petrosian-Spassky 1969 |
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Mar-03-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio>
Regarding the number of <games> vs. the number of <rounds>, there actually isn't any confusion that needs explaining. The number of games each would play is not mentioned until here in the Winter article: <"The March-April 1948 American Chess Bulletin (page 25) stated:‘Last-minute efforts to include Reuben Fine of Los Angeles among the title seekers failed, in consequence of which the plans underwent a change. Instead of meeting each other four times, the players were required to add one game with each of his rivals to his schedule. Briefly, therefore, 12 games in Moscow, added to the eight at The Hague, make a total of 20 to be contested by each of those engaged in the title quest.’"> Each player actually contests 20 games in total- 8 in The Hague, 12 in Moscow. but with byes, this equal 10 rounds in The Hague in The Hague and 15 rounds in Moscow. That's the same thing- 20 games for each of the 5 players equals 25 rounds in total when byes are considered. So I'm just going to mention the "game/round count" once, at the point where <Fine> dropped out. |
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Mar-03-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio>
Ok here's the changes added to the mirror- I'm sorry about the FULL REFERENCES in situ but I already added a new reference and this is the only way I can think to keep track- I put the new segments in parentheses so you can more easily see what I changed: The new conditions stated that the tournament would begin in spring 1948, be played (partly in The Hague and partly in Moscow,) and most notably, no extra player would be added.<6,8> <Botvinnik, Achieving the Aim, pp.107-108>; Erwin Voellmy, "Schweizerische Schachzeitung" (Oct 1947), pp. 154-55. In Edward Winter, "Interregnum."> Miguel Najdorf was excluded because of this change. He won Prague 1946 and would have qualified directly for the championship tournament, since Botvinnik won Groeningen 1946 and was already seeded into the championship.<8,9> <Erwin Voellmy, "Schweizerische Schachzeitung" (Oct 1947), pp. 154-55. In Edward Winter, "Interregnum.">; <"Chess Review" (Aug 1947), p.2>
Shortly before the tournament, Fine dropped out because of academic commitments. (FIDE therefore decided each player would play every other player five times, making 25 rounds in total, since one player would get a bye each round.) <10,11> <"American Chess Bulletin" (Jan-Feb 1948), p.11. In Edward Winter, "Interregnum.">; <"American Chess Bulletin" (March-April 1948), p.25. In Edward Winter, "Interregnum."> ########################
So here are the two altered sections:
The new conditions stated that the tournament would begin in spring 1948, be played (partly in The Hague and partly in Moscow,) and most notably, no extra player would be added.<6,8> and
Shortly before the tournament, Fine dropped out because of academic commitments. (FIDE therefore decided each player would play every other player five times, making 25 rounds in total, since one player would get a bye each round.) ####################
If you can make those sound better please post your ideas. |
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Mar-03-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: And here is the other change on that topic, with a new reference added: <Decided by lot, the first 10 rounds would be held in The Hague, followed by 15 rounds in Moscow.<G.W.J. Zittersteyn, "The Preparations for the Netherlands Leg" in Max Euwe, "The Hague-Moscow 1948 Match/Tournament for the World Chess Championship" (Russell Enterprises 2013), p.19>> The Hague got to go first because there was a drawing of lots! Who knew?
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And I also just changed "making 25 rounds" to "requiring 25 rounds" here: <FIDE therefore decided each player would play every other player five times, (requiring) 25 rounds in total, since one player would get a bye each round.> |
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Mar-03-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: And to refresh, here's how the current "problem child" looks in the mirror- I haven't changed anything further on it until the panel can decide on the best option: <Some charge that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win.<20>> |
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Mar-03-14
 | | OhioChessFan: I'm back to accepting "throw". The context of the sentence surely guides someone to understand the meaning of the term, even if they don't know the colloquialism. |
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Mar-03-14
 | | OhioChessFan: <WinterCaravanChaser: FIDE therefore decided each player would play every other player five times, (requiring) 25 rounds in total, since one player would get a bye each round.> "requiring" doesn't sound right to my ear. But there's not many options. "necessitating" is a bit stodgy. "stipulating" sounds a bit better to me, but loses a little bit of accuracy. "warranting" is a bit thick. |
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Mar-03-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: I like "throw" too. |
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Mar-03-14
 | | OhioChessFan: Maybe
<FIDE therefore decided each player would play every other player five times, [for] a total of 25 rounds, since one player would get a bye each round.> |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 75 OF 127 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
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