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WCC Editing Project
Member since Jul-19-13 · Last seen Aug-24-24
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   WCC Editing Project has kibitzed 3286 times to chessgames   [more...]
   Jun-07-15 Biographer Bistro (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <zanzibar: Since I'm an adviser to editors, rather than an editor, I'm unfamiliar with what exactly editors can do.> I want to bring this post to your attention again: Biographer Bistro (kibitz #10966) It explains what editors can do and what not.
 
   May-31-15 chessgames.com chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <chessgames.com> Maybe you overlooked this post Biographer Bistro (kibitz #11028) , since the Bistro has become rather fast-paced. An answer would be interesting to several people.
 
   May-29-15 WCC Editing Project chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <Chessical> Thank you very much for your contribution(s)! We hope that you will support us in the future, also. For sure, you have helped us quite a lot already. The draft in question is already finished and was send away, though. It is still a valuable source and
 
   Apr-01-15 Moscow (1925) (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <Capablanca> on his experience at <Moscow 1925>: <"Although very philosophical, very observant and completely dispassionate in my judgment about everything concerning chess and its great exponents, I was nonetheless <<<unable to ...
 
   Mar-08-15 Tabanus chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: Ribli - Torre Candidates Quarterfinal (1983) Audiovisual aid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8G...
 
   Mar-08-15 Alekhine - Bogoljubov World Championship Match (1929) (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <beatgiant> In case you want to read further on this topic, I have prepared a sourced timeline that summarizes the <Alekhine-Capablanca> rematch negotiations from 26 Feb 1929 - March 1935: Game Collection: WCC: Alekhine-Bogoljubov 1934 ARCHIVE
 
   Jan-29-15 suenteus po 147 chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <One Third of the original "Big Three"> I beg your pardon! I'm on vacation in Canada, and I just now saw your post in the WCC forum. By "we" I meant the cg.com biographers, not the WCC project. All of the research compiled for additions to your intro was done by ...
 
   Nov-23-14 R Fuchs vs Tal, 1969 (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <MC Scarlett> If so, very very quietly...
 
   Nov-19-14 Alexander Alekhine (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> Thanks for the correction! That sum makes more sense now in conjunction with the report on the organizers' losses. Good heavens- they can't have made much on ticket sales.
 
   Nov-17-14 E Walther vs Tal, 1966
 
WCC Editing Project: Queen trap Trick or Treat- this game was played on Halloween, 1966.
 
(replies) indicates a reply to the comment.

WCC Editing Project

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 79 OF 127 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-13-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  SwitchingQuylthulg: I think going back to one sentence might help us... but then, I always use overly long run-on sentences that go on and on and on and on until the readers' eyes start watering, like I had some weird aversion to using full stops, so that's probably just my opinion :)

<According to Kenneth Whyld, Keres told him that he didn't play to lose [to Botvinnik], and hadn't been ordered to; but he had been warned that if Botvinnik didn't become champion, it "must not be the fault of Keres.">

<According to Kenneth Whyld, Keres told him that he hadn't played to lose, and hadn't been ordered to; he was, however, warned that if Botvinnik failed to win the tournament, it "must not be the fault of Keres.">

<According to Kenneth Whyld, Keres told him that while he didn't play to lose [to Botvinnik] and hadn't been ordered to do so, he had been warned that if Botvinnik didn't become champion, it "must not be the fault of Keres.">

<According to Kenneth Whyld, Keres told him that while he didn't play to lose [to Botvinnik] and wasn't ordered to do so, he had been warned that if Botvinnik didn't become champion, it "must not be the fault of Keres.">

Mar-13-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  SwitchingQuylthulg: <Eddie> Jinx! That sounds smoother than what we currently have, but I'm not completely happy with it...
Mar-13-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Switch>

Game Collection: WCC: FIDE WCC Tournament 1948

Thanks for four (4) new suggestions!

I'm still leaning towards the fuller direct quote from source, and not just because it reads the smoothest (and it does).

I think that "the horse's mouth" is preferable to a paraphrase, particularly in this case.

We're already citing a quotation that's third-hand reported speech to begin with eh?

Each new generation of paraphrase increases the risk of losing veracity.

I'm going to put this in the mirror now-

<According to Kenneth Whyld, Keres told him that "he was not ordered to lose... games to Botvinnik, and was not playing to lose. But he had been given a broader instruction that if Botvinnik failed to become World Champion, it must not be the fault of Keres.">

There's still plenty of time though- I won't be submitting this draft until March 16th.

Mar-13-14  Karpova: Probably not of great value, but for the sake of completeness: http://en.chessbase.com/post/candid...
Mar-13-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>

This part is certainly on point:

<FIDE Candidates – historical review It all started in 1948; after a hiatus of two years, created by the sudden and untimely demise of the then world champion Alexander Alekhine in 1946. Like a kingdom in search of a worthy ruler a committee was formed under the leadership of the only surviving former world champion, Max Euwe, which after much deliberations and designs and the passage of two years, finally decided on a match to be played in The Hague and Moscow between three Russians, one American and one Dutch – <<<arguably the best players notwithstanding the process of selection which came under scrutiny and questions at the time on certain omissions>>>.>

The "scrutiny and questions" are covered in part, as you know, in Winter's article.

I'm not going to get into that in the final draft though- I'm going to leave this as is:

<They planned a quadruple round robin tournament featuring the following candidates- >

Mar-13-14  dakgootje: Ah yeah, so my suggestion changed the meaning after all. Thought it might, but I wasn't really sure. I do understand the sentence and idea now though. For more breaking news, tune in at six.

--

<I'm going to put this in the mirror now-

<According to Kenneth Whyld, Keres told him that "he was not ordered to lose... games to Botvinnik, and was not playing to lose. But he had been given a broader instruction that if Botvinnik failed to become World Champion, it must not be the fault of Keres.">>

- Why do we dot the dots after lose - is something left out of the original quote?

- However starting sentences with however is doomed - but starting with but is not? :| Can't we settle for something like conversely or on the other hand?

- Glad to see "failed to become" rather than "didn't become". Was about to suggest it myself. Sounds <much> better to me.

Mar-13-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <dakmeister>

The full original quote is posted above, and here again now:

"Referring to items 42 and 50 in this Diary, Ken Whyld wrote me: "Keres told me in private, when he was my guest in Nottingham, that he was not ordered to lose those games to Botvinnik, and was not playing to lose. But he had been given a broader instruction that if Botvinnik failed to become World Champion, it must not be the fault of Keres."

I used ellipses to cut out "those," because in the context of our draft, it doesn't really fit grammatically. We know he's talking about Keres-Botvinnik games from the 1948 WCC- so we don't need to refer to "those" Keres-Botvinnik games.

Mar-13-14  dakgootje: Ah, so that's the original - thanks.

Yeah.. I'd normally want to rewrite to something like 'Keres declined to KW that (...)', thereby unknotting another not. But I suppose keeping the quote intact might be more important.

It's a fairly minor point - I think the current text is quite clear as it is.

Mar-13-14  Karpova: Game Collection: WCC: FIDE WCC Tournament 1948

Just a thought:

"By the 10th round Botvinnik led the field by a point and faced Keres. Due to a scheduling vagary, Keres was playing after an unusually long layoff. Botvinnik later recalled, "After six days' rest, Keres sat across from me, pale as death." Before the tournament, Botvinnik had noticed this odd scheduling possibility and warned his countrymen that "when we get to The Hague, one of you will get six days of rest, and lose like a child on the seventh day."<19>"

What about switching it around, with Botvinnik's warning first and then the introduction of Keres?

"By the 10th round Botvinnik led the field by a point and faced Keres. Due to a scheduling vagary, Keres was playing after an unusually long layoff. Before the tournament, Botvinnik had noticed this odd scheduling possibility and warned his countrymen that "when we get to The Hague, one of you will get six days of rest, and lose like a child on the seventh day." Botvinnik later recalled, "After six days' rest, Keres sat across from me, pale as death."<19>" as then it also goes on with "Keres indeed lost..."

Mar-13-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>

I think that's a superb edit, thank you!

I'm going to add it in now.

Mar-13-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: I don't care for the edit. I like the dramatic juxtaposition of Botvinnik's quote ".... and lose like a child on the seventh day." with "Keres indeed lost." Lose...lost. I might even amp it up with "Keres indeed lost-badly."

I think it loses a little zing with Botvinnik's remembrance in between the two.

Mar-13-14  Karpova: Is this still thought worth changing?

See WCC Editing Project chessforum

Original: "Some charge that the Soviets pressured Keres to throw games to help Botvinnik win.<20>"

Now that <to throw> is back in the game, what about <charges> instead of <suspicions> to emphasize the point that the chess analysis provided something tangible which could be discussed?

And then change the latest suggestion the following way:

"After analysis of the games, charges were made that the Soviets had pressured Keres to throw games to Botvinnik. The analysis has been disputed, though.<20>"

Mar-13-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: I'm trying to manipulate that paragraph to make the warning first and then the appearance of Keres as a fulfillment of Botvinnik's prophecy (which is quite dramatic upon further review) while keeping the lose/lost together.
Mar-13-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> I remember your previous points on that, but I'm going to keep it to the simple sentence that's in there now.

The source is also a weblink, so folks who want to know more detail can easily just click on it and read the article.

##################

<Ohio> On your point, if you can come up with something I think is better, I'd be happy to see it.

Mar-13-14  Boomie: I join with the steamed <OhioChestFan> as a "but" man and propose:

<According to Kenneth Whyld, Keres told him that he was not ordered to lose games to Botvinnik, but if Botvinnik didn't become champion, it "must not be the fault of Keres.">

Mar-13-14  Boomie: Jeez. You guys posted War and Peace while I was mulling over my post. That's what I get for following my edict "Think twice, post once, if at all."
Mar-13-14  Boomie: <Wriggling Coed Camper>

"Botvinnik later recalled, "After six days' rest, Keres sat across from me, pale as death."<19> Keres indeed lost <the game> <insert game link>"

Just a little reminder to remove the bracketed comments. The game link has already been added.

Mar-14-14  Karpova: <Boomie: Just a little reminder to remove the bracketed comments. The game link has already been added.>

The brackets are there to indicate that in the final version <the game> in <Keres indeed lost <the game>, allowing Botvinnik to carry a 1.5 point lead into the Moscow leg.> will be the link, so the brackets need to stay there for the webmaster. See the last paragraph of Steinitz-Gunsberg World Championship Match (1890) for an illustration of how it will look.

Mar-14-14  Boomie: <Karpova> Thanks.
Mar-14-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Timber!>

I like "But" better as well- BUT I'm going to stick with the longer direct quote I have in the mirror at the moment:

<According to Kenneth Whyld, Keres told him that "he was not ordered to lose... games to Botvinnik, and was not playing to lose. But he had been given a broader instruction that if Botvinnik failed to become World Champion, it must not be the fault of Keres.">

You'll note it does have a but in it. But the but is used to start a second sentence.

I'm going to stick with this for two reasons:

1. The information is already 3d hand, and translated at least once from Russian to English, so I don't really want to do a 4th paraphrase. Best to use what's left of the actual horse's mouth. I think.

2. The original quote makes the meaning clearer than does the paraphrase I had in the draft before.

Mar-14-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Ohio>

I feel I should have been more specific about why I liked <Karpova's> idea for this edit:

<"By the 10th round Botvinnik led the field by a point and faced Keres. Due to a scheduling vagary, Keres was playing after an unusually long layoff. Before the tournament, Botvinnik had noticed this odd scheduling possibility and warned his countrymen that "when we get to The Hague, one of you will get six days of rest, and lose like a child on the seventh day." Botvinnik later recalled, "After six days' rest, Keres sat across from me, pale as death.">

Immediately upon reading it I thought it sounded less disjointed than what I had previously.

I think part of the reason is that now there is a crucial nexus between the first and second sentences, making the "scheduling" issue clear across two time periods.

Also, I like the way Keres is made into "bookends"- the passage starts and ends with him. The connecting material about "scheduling" is in the middle, and I think it belongs there.

Maybe I didn't do a good job of explaining this, but I do much prefer <Karpova's> version.

Mar-14-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: I think "Botvinnik later recalled, "After six days' rest, Keres sat across from me, pale as death." needs a segue into it. Every time I read it, it just seems disjointed. It might be as simple as "And as Botvinnik later recalled......"

Taking it quickly under advisement.

Mar-14-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: A try:

<By the 10th round Botvinnik led the field by a point and faced Keres. Due to a scheduling vagary, Keres was playing after an unusually long layoff. Before the tournament, Botvinnik had noticed this odd scheduling possibility and warned his countrymen that "when we get to The Hague, one of you will get six days of rest, and lose like a child on the seventh day." Botvinnik's prophecy came true. As Botvinnik later recalled, "After six days' rest, Keres sat across from me, pale as death." Keres proceeded to lose in 23 moves Botvinnik vs Keres, 1948>

I'm not 100% on board here, but I like this better than the current model.

Should the w in "when" from the quote be capitalized?

Mar-14-14  Karpova: What about something less invasive, like

"By the 10th round Botvinnik led the field by a point and faced Keres. Due to a scheduling vagary, Keres was playing after an unusually long layoff. Before the tournament, Botvinnik had noticed this odd scheduling possibility and warned his countrymen that "when we get to The Hague, one of you will get six days of rest, and lose like a child on the seventh day." Indeed, as Botvinnik later recalled, "After six days' rest, Keres sat across from me, pale as death."<19>"

Mar-14-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Indeed........In fact.....And it happened......As it happened.....So it happened.....

Thinking, thinking.

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