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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 9 OF 127 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Jul-31-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: Good Heavens on that same Kibbutzing page there's a very angry rant about the poorly sourced intro from a year and a half ago. Appears to be from some shrieking harridan, so perhaps can be disregarded. |
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Jul-31-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> Excellent! Might I ask you to please mark clearly where you are translating German text? "Overall, a successful title defense was expected but also many exciting games rich in content." That's your translation of the German text right?
If you could put the English in quotations then we could more easily see that it's your translation of the German text you post. I have a question about the idiom-
You translate the start of the quote as "Overall"- But doesn't the original German- <Die ziemlich einheitliche Meinung der Schachwelt> -say something more like <"The virtually uniform opinion of the Chess World">? That's more specific and clear than just "overall," which is a bit too vague, at least in English idiom. At any rate, your original source is golden and I think we should use it. You conclude with:
<So I think that maybe you could mention that Alekhine was the favorite from the beginning. As the WC title was at stake, something about it being an "exhibition" match rather should only be used if contained in an actual quote. If we start with that, then what about the even more one-sided Dr. Lasker matches against Marshall or Janowski (I'm not counting Dr. Tarrasch as he was actually considered to be a worthy WC challenger, alongside Maroczy at the beginning of the century)?> I agree totally and I think we should not use the word "exhibition" at all. Unless we see it in a primary source, it is by no means historically justified. And more than that- even if we did find something, if it's just one isolated opinion, we should still be hesitant to use such a pejorative and controversial term as "exhibition match." |
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Jul-31-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: I have another question.
Is Alekhine-Bogoljubov World Championship Rematch (1934) really a "Rematch"? Technically, it's not a rematch right? At least, it's not a rematch in the same sense as <Alekhine-Euwe 1937> or any of <Botvinnik's> rematches. We should use language that distinguishes a "contractually obliged rematch" from simply "another match between the same players." If it isn't, it shouldn't be listed as a Rematch in the Match Title in the Main index here: History of the World Chess Championship
Similarly, the second <Lasker-Steinitz> Match should not be titled a "Rematch" unless it was contractually obliged as such. |
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Jul-31-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: Game Collection: WCC: Alekhine-Bogoljubov Rematch 1934 Match Conditions and venues:
<"The conditions were that there could be up to 30 games in the match, and the winner had to obtain at least six wins and score 15 1/2 points. To increase the financial return, it was decided that games should be played in a number of German cities and that publicity would be maximised by giving simultaneous exhibitions and displays with living pieces in these cities. Play was to start in Baden-Baden on Easter Sunday, 1 April."> -"Alexander Alekhine's Chess Games, 1902-1946"
Skinner and Verhoeven
McFarland, 1998
p. 490 |
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Jul-31-13
 | | OhioChessFan: <In the years since the 1929 World Championship Match a new generation of strong players had just begun to arrive on the scene> I am uncomfortable with the word "since" there. It suggests a present day examination of the subject matter. For example, "Since the WCC Editing Project began...." implies we are speaking of <right now>. But later in the sentence, it reverts back to past tense with "had just begun". I think for consistency's sake, and it just sounds better to my ear, the word "after" should replace "since". And a comma after "Match" is indicated. |
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Jul-31-13
 | | OhioChessFan: FWIW, I disagree with <FSR> per Reshevsky. Are you going to use "Robert" Fischer in every intro? If a player is primarily used by a dimunitive of their first name, I think that's how they should be cited. I know there are some close calls, Vishy for example, but I think Sammy is far more the norm. |
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Jul-31-13
 | | OhioChessFan: <The match conditions were the best of 30 games, and 6 wins. The match was over after 26 games. > Ask a casual chess player what that means and I suspect you'll get a puzzled look in response. This is a rare occasion I think more is better than less. I think there's too much expectation of understanding by the reader and it should be spelled out a bit more for clarification. |
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Jul-31-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio>
Now it's <In the years after the 1929 World Championship Match,> I'm going to vote for <Samuel Reshevsky> and <Bobby Fischer>, based on how many times I've read each version of the two names. We can await other opinions on this.
<I suspect you'll get a puzzled look in response> Like the one on my face.
Agreed.
I tried to understand exactly what these conditions mean by reading the kibbutzing here- Alekhine-Bogoljubov World Championship Rematch (1934), but I'm embarrassed to say I still don't understand. For example- does this mean <Alekhine> had draw odds? I vote we get <crawfb5> or <Phony Benoni> to explain the match conditions to us, then we can put it in the intro. |
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| Jul-31-13 | | Karpova: <jess>
It was not a literal translation to show that the match was not considered to be a joke, though Alekhine considered to be the clear favorite. A literal translation of <Die ziemlich einheitliche Meinung der Schachwelt geht jedenfalls dahin, daß Dr. [sic] Aljechin den Weltmeistertitel behaupten wird. Man erwartet auch inhaltsreiche, spannende Partien und das wird wohl in Erfüllung gehen.> The pretty consistent opinion of the chessworld in any case points towards Dr. Alekhine sustaining the WC title. On also suspects rich in content, exciting games and this will no doubt come true. Maybe one of the Germans like <whiteshark> or <thomastonk> could offer a smoother translation. |
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| Jul-31-13 | | Karpova: Regarding the "rematch". It's curious that the 1934 'Wiener Schachzeitung' on pages 96-97 always speaks of a <first> and <second> match (also on page 113). If they considered it to be a rematch, they may have called it <Revanchekampf> for example but they don't. Finding out more about the conditions may clear up this point. |
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Jul-31-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> Thank you so much! I added it to the mirror intro.
The meaning seems clear, and I think we should use this source in the actual intro. Good idea to ask <whiteshark> and <thomastonk> as well, as you say. <whiteshark> is still on hiatus, and I've been hoping for some time <thomastonk> might find his way over here. Perhaps it's time to invite him directly. |
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Jul-31-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>
<It's curious that the 1934 'Wiener Schachzeitung' on pages 96-97 always speaks of a <first> and <second> match (also on page 113). If they considered it to be a rematch, they may have called it <Revanchekampf> for example but they don't.> That's probably because it wasn't a rematch.
I think that unless we can find a source that says a "Rematch" was stipulated in the contract for the first Match, we shouldn't use the word "rematch." I think we should reserve the word "rematch" for events that were previously contracted for in the first match. We should distinguish between "two matches with the same two players" and a "contractual rematch" between two players. |
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| Jul-31-13 | | Karpova: Regarding the match conditions (from page 96 of the 1934 'Neue Wiener Schachzeitung'*): It is clearly stated the the conditions were the same as in the 1st match: 30 games, the winner is the first to get the most points (15.5) if 6 wins are included therein. From page 113: Hans Kmoch was Alekhine's, Hans Müller Bogoljubov's secundant. Arbiter: Hild, Wettkampfleiter (Wettkampf = match, leiter = leader (but not Führer) or head/chief/manager): Prof. Kraft.
At the first game, April 1, Dr. Rueb, representatives of German Chess Federations, P. Biscay the president of the French Chess Federation and also Nimzowitsch among others were present. * sometimes I forget to add that. Until 1916 it is the 'Wiener Schachzeitung' and from 1923 onwards the 'Neue Wiener Schachzeitung' as <Calli> once explained. |
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Jul-31-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> that's grand- added to the Mirror edit. Thanks largely to your invaluable contemporaneous primary sources, we're getting some great hard information we can use to write a proper intro to this match. |
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Jul-31-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio Match Conditions Fan and other Steamed Colleagues> Courtesy of <crawfb5>: Game Collection: WCC: Alekhine-Bogoljubov Rematch 1934 <The conditions were that there could be up to 30 games in the match, and the winner had to obtain at least six wins and score 15 1/2 points.There is a maximum number of games (30). By implication, there is also a <minimum> number of games (16 -- 15 wins and one draw=15.5). While six wins are <required> to win the match, a 6-0 score is not <sufficient> because the minimum number of games have not yet been played. Why specifically 15.5? The maximum score for the loser in a full 30-game match would be 14.5. Why specify a minimum? Was this a multiple-venue match? Perhaps it was to insure everybody got <some> games.> See also EDIT <JFQ> <Yes, this was indeed a multiple-venue match.Games 1-3 in Baden Baden
Games 4-5 in Villingen
Games 6-8 in Freiberg
Games 9-10 in Pforzheim
Games 11-12 in Stuttgart
Games 13-15 in Munich
Game 16 in Bayreuth
Game 17-18 in Kissingen
Games 19-20 in Nuremberg
Game 21 in Karlsruhe
Games 22-24 in Mannheim
Games 25-26 in Berlin> > |
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Jul-31-13
 | | FSR: <WCC Editing Project: Good Heavens on that same Kibbutzing page there's a very angry rant about the poorly sourced intro from a year and a half ago. Appears to be from some shrieking harridan, so perhaps can be disregarded.> Yes, she was probably off her meds at the time. :-) |
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Jul-31-13
 | | OhioChessFan: <the former world champion José Raúl Capablanca was still trying unsuccessfully> As a snapshot in time, it might be more accurate just to say "trying" since:
1. We only know after the fact he didn't (ever) succeed.
2. If you're trying anything, you de facto haven't accomplished it yet. If that doesn't persuade you, I think "unsuccessfully trying" flows better. |
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Aug-01-13
 | | FSR: <OCF> I agree. I didn't/don't like that phrasing either, for essentially the reasons you gave. |
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Aug-01-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: "unsuccessfully" I don't like it either for yet another reason. There's a bias, possibly not intentional, in some of these intros to perpetuate the myth that <Alekhine> was totally responsible for there being no rematch with <Capablanca>. A careful reading of the many, many letters and other primary documents in Edward Winter's very fine <Capablanca> biography dispels this myth, once and for all. Just leaving "unsuccessfully" in this intro, without comment, implies that it was only <Capa> who was trying to make this remake happen. Although admittedly only an implication here, it's also false. Anyways I deleted this word. |
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Aug-01-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: Game Collection: WCC: Alekhine-Bogoljubov Rematch 1934 Ok I've just tweaked this paragraph again:
It now reads
<In the years after the 1929 World Championship Match, a new generation of strong players had emerged, including Salo Flohr of Czechoslovakia, Isaac Kashdan of the United States, Max Euwe of the Netherlands, Andre Lilienthal of Hungary, Sultan Khan of India, and Mikhail Botvinnik of the USSR. In addition, the former world champion José Raúl Capablanca was still trying to arrange a return match for the title.> Following a suggestion by <FSR>, I believe this list- both the names and the order of the names- can and should be defended through a combination of <chessmetrics> and contemporaneous historical sources. You'll note I put <Flohr> first in this version, although that doesn't jibe with the <chessmetrics> ranking. I did this because at this time <Flohr> had "better press"- for example, in the Soviet Union he was considered among the greatest of western chess stars. That's why the Soviet Chess Section chose to pursue him as a "test opponent" for <Botvinnik> in 1933: <"Krylenko authorized Ilyin-Genevsky... to open negotiations with Czech star Salo Flohr for a match with Botvinnik in the Soviet Union. Flohr... was at the peak of his career and a legitimate world-championship challenger. A match between Botvinnik and the brilliant, diminutive positional player would be a cultural showcase for the USSR. Botvinnik claimed that the Muscovite members of Higher Soviet of Physical Culture tried to kill the match on the grounds that <<<Flohr>>> would win easily. But Krylenko was adamant."> -"Soviet Chess 1917-1991"
Andrew Soltis
MacFarland, 2000
p. 76 > |
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Aug-01-13
 | | FSR: Yes, Flohr definitely had better publicists. I don't know if anyone was agitating for an Alekhine-Kashdan match. Very few people these days realize how strong Kashdan was. |
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Aug-01-13
 | | FSR: Isaac Kashdan is the Rodney Dangerfield of chess: he "don't get no respect." FIDE only awarded him the GM title in 1954, four years after Reshevsky, Fine, and the rest. If you use Chessgames.com's search feature, he's not one of the players on the pull-down menu. All kinds of people you've never heard of are in there, but not the man who was the world's number 2 player in 1934. Just look at the guy's results - very impressive, including +1 =8 -1 against world champions. (But of course if you <really> want to talk about players who get no respect, there's poor Mir Sultan Khan, who never even was awarded a FIDE title!!! Just obscene.) |
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Aug-01-13
 | | chancho: Isaac Kashdan.
Der Kleine Capablanca. |
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Aug-01-13
 | | FSR: At his peak Kashdan was better than "big" Capablanca. |
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Aug-01-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <FSR>
Here is a poem about <Isaac Kashdan> by H.T. Bland: Kashdan has sprung up into fame
All of a sudden, as it were.
Scarcely a handful till quite late
Had been familiar with his name.
‘Divine afflatus’ he has shown
A gift bequeathed him by the gods,
Now far and wide his power is known.
-American Chess Bulletin
January 1931
p.13 |
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Later Kibitzing> |