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Jun-15-14
 | | Domdaniel: <Mark> If you *really* want somebody to change a bio, the bistro is the place to go. Of course, if you're just stirring it up, then I suppose this is the page of choice... Anyway -- surely the kid holds onto his Filipino passport, whatever happens? You can change federation and still hold onto your original citizenship, no? |
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| Jun-15-14 | | MarkFinan: I was half serious, half winding the natives up, Dom. But they demanded his bio be changed and put up to date last year so if he's switched feds then that should definitely be in there. He no longer represents the Philippines. |
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Jun-15-14
| | Domdaniel: <Mark> That sounds fair. It might annoy some of the usual suspects, of course ... but that's just a fringe benefit. |
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| Jun-15-14 | | Gottschalk: <chessgames> <Domdaniel> and others
Thank you all for helping me, because I often have difficulties to add games to the database
Naturally, Beskronny is Beskrovny
Mikhail Stepanovich Beskrovny
Regarding to the telephone match, I think change it to cable match
is most suitable |
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Jun-15-14
 | | chessgames.com: I fixed the Beskronny / Beskrovny / Beskrowny issue. As for the telephone match, maybe somebody can submit a correction slip if the facts are ascertained. A telegraph match sounds likely but I hate to speculate about PGN that is blatantly wrong in the first place. Next we might learn that the players are wrong. About Wesley's So's nationality: I suppose in a perfect world, we'd have four country fields: where they were born, where they are a citizen, where they live today, and their FIDE affiliation. However, we only have two: where they were born and their citizenship. So unless Wesley has become a US citizen I think things are fine as they stand. Of course, it's entirely appropriate to mention his current FIDE affiliation in the biography. |
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| Jun-15-14 | | crawfb5: Tim Harding has the tele(phone/graph) game in his CD collection of correspondence games listed as <telegraph match 1860>, but no source or cities listed. He does give the teams as Hammond and Richard Howard versus Litchenhein and M Loyd. There is a sister game with colors reversed:
[Event "telegraph match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1860.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Lichtenhein/Loyd_M"]
[Black "Hammond/Howard, Richard"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C41"]
[EventDate "1860.??.??"]
[PlyCount "98"]
[EventType "simul"]
[EventRounds "2"]
[Source "Chess Mail Ltd"]
[SourceDate "2008.09.12"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4 Bd7 5.Bc4 Nc6 6.Qd3 Nf6 7.O-O Be7 8.Ng5 Ne5 9.Qb3 Nxc4 10.Qxc4 O-O 11.f4 h6 12.Nf3 Bc6 13.Nc3 Nxe4 14.Nd4 Nxc3 15.Nxc6 bxc6 16.Qxc3 Qd7 17.f5 Bf6 18.Qg3 Kh7 19.Qd3 Rfe8 20.Bd2 Re5 21.Bc3 Rd5 22.Qf3 Bxc3 23.Qxc3 f6 24.Rae1 Re8 25.Rxe8 Qxe8 26.Qg3 Qh5 27.Qf2 c5 28.h3 Re5 29.Qf3 Qxf3 30.Rxf3 Re2 31.Rc3 a5 32.b3 Re4 33.g3 g6 34.fxg6+ Kxg6 35.Kf2 f5 36.Kf3 h5 37.Re3 Rxe3+ 38.Kxe3 Kf6 39.Kf4 d5 40.a3 d4 41.a4 c6 42.Kf3 Ke5 43.Ke2 Ke4 44.h4 c4 45.b4 Kd5 46.bxa5 c5 47.Kd2 c3+ 48.Ke2 c4 49.a6 Kc6 0-1 I will submit a correction slip. |
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| Jun-15-14 | | crawfb5: It looks like Harding is not quite correct either; based on the New York newspapers of the day, the telegraph games were played between Boston and New York over the course of a little over a week in March 1860. It looks like it was two teams of five players each, but I think I will refrain from suggesting further roster changes until I can do some more digging. |
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| Jun-16-14 | | zanzibar: My autopilot crashed on this url:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... Which is basically trying to find Bolbochan, Jacobo -- Najdorf, Miguel / Mar del Plata (1948) There are 3 other pairs that missed as well, but I thought it best to start with just one. Doing a search with numeric pid's using the <Advanced Search> doesn't work either, but using the names does: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... Here are the player games from 1948 with pid lookup:
<Bolbochan (58993)>
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... <Najdorf (21930)>
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... |
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Jun-16-14
| | chessgames.com: <Doing a search with numeric pid's using the <Advanced Search> doesn't work either, but using the names does> Are you just mixing up Julio with Jacobo? I plugged in Julio's number and it seems to work fine: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... |
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| Jun-16-14 | | zanzibar: Hi <chessgames>,
It was a bit late last night and I was rushing in the hope of an easy approach to landing... But the Bolbochan brothers are a big potential for confusion! One problem with my new approach using pid's, is that I won't see such confusions in my html tournament listings - since the more selective pairings will miss these kinds of near-misses. After review I guess <CG> has the wrong Bolbochan, which also explains why my submission was flagged a duplicate. (In my email I may have been confused reconstructing my memories... or maybe not, I can't remember!) Joking aside - I'm almost 100% sure Jacobo played Mar del Plate (MdP) 1948, according to both ARGbase and chesslibrary (eqv Di Felice): http://www.thechesslibrary.com/file... http://zanchess.wordpress.com/2014/... So now, with my submission of the other missing MdP-1948 games, <CG> now has an admixture of the brothers. I'll submit a correction slip for the Najdorf game.
And then I'll look closer at the 3 games my software missed... |
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| Jun-16-14 | | zanzibar: Two of Laszlo's games were missing before my submission, and are still missing - well, because they got filed under the wrong Laszlo. 16113 the good Laszlo
128924 the bad Laszlo
The "misplaced" games:
L Szabo vs Jacobo Bolbochan, 1948
R Dominguez Sanguineti vs L Szabo, 1948
Now, how can I avoid this in the future?
One possibility is to submit the PGN with the <CG> pid's instead of player names. Or both? What is best? |
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| Jun-16-14 | | zanzibar: <chessgames> <RE: Mar del Plata (1948)> There were a couple of <CG> games with Mariano Castillo Larenas (23455) instead of Manuel Castillo (88102): M Castillo vs Najdorf, 1948
Szabo vs M Castillo, 1948
I've submitted correction slips for both.
* * * * *
But the question I have now is this:
Can I submit a multi-game PGN file and have <CG> apply the corrections to the headers for games it identifies as duplicates. Instead of just spitting out the pits and making me redo some of the work, can't <CG> just apply the "corrections"? |
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Jun-16-14
| | chessgames.com: <Can I submit a multi-game PGN file and have <CG> apply the corrections to the headers for games it identifies as duplicates.> No, the software doesn't do that. Whether or not it *should* do that is another question. We regularly get game submissions for games we already have, often with bizarre spelling errors and incomplete data in the header — which probably explains why the member in question couldn't find <Saemish vs Nimzowish, Kopenhaagen, 1923">. So at the very least, to blindly assume that "new headers trump existing headers" would be a horrible policy. Moreover, for any "mass correction" type effort we must put on our kid-gloves. One mistake and we could wipe out 100 hours of Librarian work in a few keystrokes. Having said that, the notion of mass correcting headers is not implausible, for special situations. Perhaps it won't be as important when CG Editors have the ability to change more PGN header fields? |
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Jun-16-14
| | chessgames.com: About the many <Laszlo Szabos> — that's a tricky one. The way we've handled it for other players is by using middle names. That's why Tigran Vartanovich Petrosian gets a middle name, to differentiate him from several other players with the same name. We have no facility for identifying a player by PID for PGN uploads, however that's a very interesting idea. PGN allows for us to make up ad-hoc tags, so suppose the PGN had this: [ChessgamesWhitePID "16113"]
Then our software could be on the lookout for that and use it unquestioningly when it appears. Of course only 1% of the uploads would have that tag, but that's the 1% who really must know what they are doing. We'll take that idea into consideration. |
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Jun-16-14
 | | Annie K.: Yeah, both Laszlo (something like Leslie) and Szabo (Taylor) are common Hungarian names. I like [White ChessgamesPID "16113"] better, as parsing goes. ;) Really nice idea! :) |
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| Jun-16-14 | | zanzibar: <No, the software doesn't do that. Whether or not it *should* do that is another question.> Encouraging to see that acknowledgment.
My ultimate goal is to be able to tame a tournament on my local machine using the best game sources available (which may, or may not, involve <CG>). Then, once I can get the correct Swiss crosstable produced (i.e. with correct pairings/result/colors/rounds), I'd like to just submit directly to <CG> as a giant PGN and consider it done. Ideally, <CG> would have the knowledge and tools to integrate the games properly - adding in the previously missing games, and normalizing header info for identified duplicates (as well as checking movelists). It would be fairly straight-forward to save the old PGN for the duplicates as backup, in case something goes wrong. Now, I could consider a phase where the submitted PGN could be subjected to review before being approved for <CG> updating - e.g. made available for download by other biographers, and/or have <CG> flag near twins for further review and resolution by the submitter. But a careful submitter would really have already done all that work, as it is very difficult to get a correct Swiss xtab otherwise. (Of course, the actual moves of a game are the most vulnerable to mistakes, and the most difficult to independently verify). Identifying the correct <CG> players who participated in the tournament is perhaps the most critical part of the submission in this model. But that model isn't what we are dealing with today - so let's shelf the ideal for the moment and address some more pressing concerns in the next post... Note: Ah, but before leaving the subject, consider finding the games like the Castillo--Najdorf Mar del Plata (1948) game. On <CG> it showed up as Castillo Larenas--Najdorf. How could I find this potential problem before submission? I can't do a search for the Event/Site fields presently, even with a <CG Advanced Search>. And using a name search, <Najdorf + Castillo> showed <M. Castillo>, which was the short name for "Mariano Castillo Larenas". (I think that's wrong, btw). I suppose I could go through all 18 tournament participants, looking at all the games on <CG> from 1948, and try to match up the Event/Site field. All by hand as of today. The point is I really would be challenged to find that conflict, whereas <CG> would identify it quickly, and presumably automatically, by matching movelists. So, who really should be doing this vetting, me or <CG>? |
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| Jun-16-14 | | zanzibar: <chessgames> <About the many <Laszlo Szabos> — that's a tricky one. The way we've handled it for other players is by using middle names.> As is <CG> has a name degeneracy which should never be allowed to happen. This suggests a quick task for me to check the 75k released playerlist for other degeneracies. This is a topic where I find myself disappointed by SCID's solution. They never allow degenerate names, but they don't have a systematic methodology for renaming. The middle name idea is useful, and generally used (even by FIDE, and SCID). SCID messes up sometimes here - or at least <MillBase> does. For instance, I find a 1958 Petrosian--Fischer game with: Petrosian, T (FIDE id 13300849)
http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?...
No matter what, there will be a degeneracy of names at some point. Then the literal id will need some kind of extension. I would like something like a dob, or even FIDE id, or ... ?? Of course, precedence should mean that <Petrosian, Tigran> is "the" Petrosian! Those that some after are the one obligated to have the extended name. SCID does some dorky stuff here - e.g.
Ivanov, Alexander
Ivanov, Alexander Al
Ivanov, Alexander USA
Ivanov, Alexy2
Ivanov, Alexy3 |
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Jun-16-14
 | | SwitchingQuylthulg: <zanzibar> <M Castillo> seems like an entirely reasonable short form for Mariano Castillo Larenas. What's your source for the Mar del Plata player not being Mariano Castillo Larenas? He was the strongest M. Castillo active in that area at the time, and http://books.google.com/books?ei=Ym... (a contemporary Chess Review) credits him with playing in that tournament. |
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Jun-16-14
| | Annie K.: <cg> while the subject is Laszlo Szabo, you could copy the audio file for 16113 to 128924 as well. :) |
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| Jun-16-14 | | zanzibar: <Switch> I messed up somehow about <M. Castillo>. I should have all <Manuel Castillo> -> <Mariano Castillo Larenas> I just discovered that, hoping to delete my messages before being "discovered". Damn, OK, I'm going to doublecheck, and will have to resubmit corrections. Not sure how that happened... I've had Manuel Castillo in my head for a couple of days. As far as the short form, I think the modern treatment for Spanish names is to keep both names (patronymic and surname) to keep from confusing idiots like me. |
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| Jun-16-14 | | zanzibar: I feel bad about the Castillo fiasco - after all, it was on the chesslibrary original crosstable. Like I said, damn! I found it while doublechecking what I thought was the last correction: <Renato Sanguineti> -> <Renato Sanguinetti> (And I can't even remember if I submitted a correction slip or not) |
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Jun-16-14
| | SwitchingQuylthulg: <zanzibar> Something makes me doubt CG will change the short form of Jose Raul Capablanca to "Capablanca y Graupera" any time soon. Indeed, even Leinier Dominguez Perez has the short form of "L Dominguez". Short forms are supposed to be short, after all :) For us too, the best way to find if a game's already up under a weird misspelling is by searching for moves. (EZ-Search accepts moves as input nowadays, and redirects you to the Opening Explorer. Where that's not sufficient, the download-the-whole-database-and-write-some-evil-code option is always available.) Doing such a search has the added advantage of revealing games that are completely independent of the game being uploaded yet still identical enough to trigger CG's duplicate detector. Mind you, I know that's an inconvenience, and such checks aren't part of my regular uploading routine, though they probably ought to be. |
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Jun-16-14
 | | mistermac: If any spy can make much sense of what is said by team members here, or on the official team site, with its plethora of vacant infromation, then he is a better man that me, Ginger Dinn. |
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| Jun-16-14 | | zanzibar: <Switch> As for the short names - some players are elevated to top shelf rank, and like Madonna or Prince, receiving the privilege of being known by a single name: Capablanca, Fischer, Morphy, Pillbury, Botvinnik, Petrosian, Gligoric, etc. But <CG> is a little generous for others, and even Browne and Christiansen are a little too generous for my tastes. Still, let's allow for that. But for Spanish names, isn't the modern usage by FIDE and Chessbase to use both surnames these days, and rarely shorten the name? Maybe not, and so this is something I need to be keenly more aware of, apparently. |
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| Jun-16-14 | | zanzibar: This is my fault - <MillBase> uses the name <M. Castillo> for <Mariano Castillo Larcenas>, and while exploring <CG> for other <M. Castillo>'s I found <Manuel Castillo>. At that point I simply became confused, and somehow got it in my head that this was the correct player, and plowed ahead with the error. That means 17 games I'll have to submit correction slips for later tonight. For the extra work this causes <CG> I apologize... For the extra work this causes me, I deserve it!
PS- I'm not the only one to have made this error however: http://www.redhotpawn.com/chess/gra... |
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