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Jan-23-16
 | | MissScarlett: <The software makes a tournament from three tags> Change the software then. It can be simply done by Event and Event Date alone. In the highly improbable event of exceptions, they can be individually differentiated. |
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| Jan-23-16 | | zanzibar: <MissScarlett> good thing you're not in charge then. Of course, neither am I. Let's strike up the band one more time...
Just suppose, for supposing sake, that we look at the tournaments taking place around Morphy's centennial. One might expect lots and lots of tournaments named "Morphy Centennial", all synchronized to take place on the weekend nearest his birthday. How should we distinguish all these tournaments, one from the other? * * * * *
Now, let me turn the tables and ask why you would object to seeing a game PGN like this: <
[Event "78th Tata Steel"]
[Site "Wijk ann Zee / Amsterdam / Utrecht"]
[EventDate "2016.01.15"]
[Round "11"]
...
{ Played in Utrecht }
>
You have all the information about the game in the PGN. The software's happy, why aren't you? What's wrong with this scheme, specifically?
PS- A savy user, such as yourself, will surely know where each round was played by heart anyways! |
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Jan-24-16
 | | chessgames.com: I have a lot to say on these topics, but for the time being, consider this as a template for a new PGN format unique to Chessgames. Note particularly the 5 new lines on the end. [Event "FIDE World Blitz Championship"]
[Site "Dubai UAE"]
[Date "2014.06.19"]
[EventDate "2014.06.19"]
[Round "8.1"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Lu Shanglei"]
[Black "Magnus Carlsen"]
[ECO "C25"]
[WhiteElo "2546"]
[BlackElo "2881"]
[PlyCount "107"]
[ChessgamesWhiteID "126207"]
[ChessgamesBlackID "52948"]
[ChessgamesTournamentID "84260"]
[ChessgamesGametype "BLITZ"]
[ChessgamesGameID "1759387"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 Bc5 4. Bg2 d6 5. Na4 Be6 6. Ne2 Qd7 7. h3 Nge7 8. d3 O-O-O 9. Nxc5 dxc5 10. Be3 b6 11. f4 f5
12. Qd2 fxe4 13. dxe4 Qe8 14. Qc3 Nd4 15. Bxd4 cxd4 16. Qa3 Bc4 17. Bf3 Nc6 18. O-O-O exf4 19. gxf4 Bxe2 20. Bxe2 Qxe4
21. Bf3 Qxf4+ 22. Kb1 Ne5 23. Qa6+ Kd7 24. Bg2 Rhe8 25. Rhea Ke6 26. Qxa7 Re7 27. Re4 Qf2 28. Rde1 Kf7 29. Rf1 Qf6
30. Rxf6+ gxf6 31. Re1 d3 32. cxd3 Rxd3 33. Qa4 Red7 34. a3 Rd2 35. Bc6 R7d4 36. Qb3+ Ke7 37. Qg3 Kd6 38. Be4 b5 39. Bxh7
b4 40. axb4 Rxb4 41. Qc3 Rbd4 42. Bc2 c5 43. Rc1 Nc4 44. Qg3+ Kc6 45. Ba4+ Kd5 46. Bb3 Rxb2+ 47. Ka1 Rbd2 48. Rxc4 Rxc4
49. Qf3+ Ke5 50. Bxc4 Rd4 51. Qe3+ Re4 52. Qxc5+ Kf4 53. Bd3 Re5 54. Qf2+ 1-0 |
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Jan-24-16
 | | Tabanus: <CG> I planned to make a tournament page for Vestmannaeyjum (1985) and submitted all the games some (four?) months ago. But they are not in yet. You have about 1/3 of the games from before, and I was hoping those would be weeded out during the import. I would have sent again only the ones you are missing, if only I had not lost them all. ---
And a note on the Biographer Bistro. There are few biographers left. Instead the pages are filled with kibitzing (about chess history) by non-editors. Is this the way you wanted it? There are perhaps things you could do: 1) rename it to a general "chess history" forum. Or 2) throw out the chatters and make it available for editors only. Or 3) have two history forums. 4) You could hire a chess historian. 5) You could try to get better volunteer editors. If you allow every schoolboy to be an editor, the serious ones will lose interest. 5) Let us see who your editors are. 6) Let us decide through voting who will become an editor. Something like that. Software quirks combined with liberalism is one thing, chess history another ;) |
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Jan-24-16
| | chessgames.com: <Tabanus> Your last file was processed on Dec 30th and I don't see any PGN uploads with the string Vestmannaeyjum in any of the uploads from anybody. <I would have sent again only the ones you are missing, if only I had not lost them all.> Oh dear, I don't know what we can do. <1) rename it to a general "chess history" forum. Or 2) throw out the chatters and make it available for editors only. Or 3) have two history forums. 4) You could hire a chess historian. 5) You could try to get better volunteer editors. If you allow every schoolboy to be an editor, the serious ones will lose interest. 5) Let us see who your editors are. 6) Let us decide through voting who will become an editor.> Those are all great ideas exception for #1, which is just capitulation. Things were going smoothly for a while but problems come in when different editors have different agendas and "talk through one another." Thanks for your advice and let me give it some thought. Also congratulations on your Best Historian award. |
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Jan-24-16
| | chessgames.com: <zanzibar: I already know I'm not winning any popularity prizes round these parts, but it's time to bring up this topic (again). Let's start somewhat indirectly... Suppose I'm looking for a player whose last name is <Michel> The search gets flooded with all the players whose first name is Michel. What's a poor boy to do?>
In a perfect world there might be some way to specify "last name = Michel" or some other manner of getting to the player record you want. We aren't concentrating efforts on this at this time because it's just not a big problem. If you really wanted to, you could use Switching's solution, or even simpler to the less tech-savvy you could go to Google and simply search for "chess games of Michel" and I guarantee that you'll find the page. I know this is just a workaround, but we have to tackle problems one by one. |
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Jan-24-16
| | chessgames.com: Regarding public domain photos:
Software could be developed to scrape the Wiki Media project for chess players, assign the appropriate attributions, and even scale the graphic to CG standards. Meanwhile we'll keep doing it by hand. |
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Jan-24-16
| | chessgames.com: <<The software makes a tournament from three tags> Change the software then.> I can appreciate both sides of this argument. I don't think it's a clearcut situation, although both parties to this argument seem to think the other one is being ridiculous. An advantage of listing the specific locales on the proper games is that the game is fully correct, specific, and it doesn't require the needs of {notes} inside the score to provide additional context. An advantage to listing the combined site-tags is that it makes it very easy for software to group PGN games into their proper tournaments. Granted, perhaps more clever software might have a different approach, but we want to be as compatible with as many platforms as possible. If we could again step into that perfect world, there would be a preference option that says "Would you like to see the PGN like MissScarlet prefers it, or like zanzibar prefers it?" |
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Jan-24-16
| | Tabanus: <Thanks for your advice and let me give it some thought.> Okay! :) What I mean is, your "software quirks" are good, and deserves praise. But that does not help if the application gets filled with ... too much crap. |
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Jan-24-16
| | Tabanus: <I don't see any PGN uploads with the string Vestmannaeyjum in any of the uploads from anybody.> Oh dear. I sent an e-mail with the games attached. So I believe, but can't prove. |
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| Jan-24-16 | | zanzibar: <If we could again step into that perfect world, there would be a preference option that says "Would you like to see the PGN like MissScarlet prefers it, or like zanzibar prefers it?"> This isn't even close to right... you're personalizing the issue. The correct way to ask the question is...
<Do you want to be non-compliant, or do you want to conform with the PGN standard, and do the PGN likeChessBase (and Fritz)
NIC
365chess
ChessTempo
MillBase
TWIC
etc. etc.>
It's not even close.
The exact same with using <lastname, firstname> (or what I call collation order) for player names in the PGN. You can live in a bubble, sure, but the disadvantages are mounting the longer you do. |
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| Jan-24-16 | | zanzibar: <Tab> writes
<There are few biographers left. Instead the pages are filled with kibitzing (about chess history) by non-editors. > He's referring to me.
I took a 3-month hiatus from biographical work (and recovered 200 rating points). What happened to the Bistro? Biographer Bistro (kibitz #12367) <Tab> may complain, but perhaps the issue isn't the "American way", but the "Tabway or the Highway" attitude. Look, I think my recent posts, thus copious, are more historically relevant than teaching Tab how to write English, OK? |
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Jan-24-16
| | Tabanus: <Things were going smoothly for a while but problems come in when different editors have different agendas and "talk through one another."> CG may be referring to me and Z here. But "when poverty comes in at the door, love flies out at the window". That's good English, isn't it? CG has allowed too much crap to be labeled as "history", and now the horses have fled, or are biting. |
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Jan-24-16
 | | Annie K.: <zanz>, <tab> - gentlemen, if you could please let go of each other's throats, or at least twist a little more gently? ;s
You both do very valuable and appreciated work around here, srsly. :) <Tab> if you need proofreading help, you're always welcome to drop by my forum and let me know - admittedly I don't check the Bistro often enough, but I'll be glad to look at your work. <Tabanus: <<I don't see any PGN uploads with the string Vestmannaeyjum in any of the uploads from anybody.>Oh dear. I sent an e-mail with the games attached.> > Oh, this is good news. Daniel says he checked the uploads, but this means he should check his email instead. :) |
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Jan-24-16
| | Tabanus: <Annie K.> I blame CG, really. Z and I may fight, but I cannot do much with the introductions (and game scores etc. too) that need improvement, and Z's kibitzing does not help much either. We have a Ferrari, but children to drive it IMO. CG needs good biographers. |
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Jan-24-16
| | Tabanus: <<Tab> if you need proofreading help, you're always welcome to drop by my forum> Thanks, that's fine! But I'm running out of love :( I simply can't understand why <the> leading chess site and 322 million Americans can't muster even <one> good chess history writer. |
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Jan-24-16
| | Annie K.: Well, you can't really hold <cg> responsible for all 322 million Americans. :s Let's see if we can come up with any improvements, anyway. :) <cg: <Things were going smoothly for a while but problems come in when different editors have different agendas and "talk through one another.">> This is one of those rare times when I think a forum-with-threads structure might be useful here... |
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Jan-24-16
| | MissScarlett: <One might expect lots and lots of tournaments named "Morphy Centennial", all synchronized to take place on the weekend nearest his birthday. How should we distinguish all these tournaments, one from the other?> Fine. Let's assume two of these take place in New Orleans. How do we distinguish between them? <<Do you want to be non-compliant, or do you want to conform with the PGN standard, and do the PGN like[snip]
etc. etc.>
<A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.> The standard of the PGN data at those sites is nothing to aspire to. <We were meant for so much more.> <You can live in a bubble, sure, but the disadvantages are mounting the longer you do.> Yeah, such as? |
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Jan-24-16
| | MissScarlett: <I don't think it's a clearcut situation, although both parties to this argument seem to think the other one is being ridiculous.> Not at all. But my solution is both more economical and functional. |
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| Jan-24-16 | | zanzibar: <MissS> Please delete your post and resubmit with quotations properly attributed. You stand accused of editorial misrepresentation by mixing sources: <A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.> I never wrote that. |
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Jan-24-16
| | MissScarlett: Why would I want to delete it?
<You stand accused of editorial misrepresentation> Not guilty. Case dismissed. |
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| Jan-24-16 | | zanzibar: <MissS>
Do be so kind as to hhow me a link to where I wrote that about hobgoblins, or this... <We were meant for so much more.> Maybe you were innocently attempting to emphasize your statements, which, given the context, the normal reader would conflate with quotes from the plaintiff. In which case, the absence of malice still doesn't excuse you from the original charge of negligence. Or, in the words of your favorite liberal...
GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!!'
http://www.richardbradley.net/shots... |
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| Jan-24-16 | | zanzibar: <MissS> Before I answer any of your additional questions, would you please this question of mine, previously asked: <What's wrong with this scheme, specifically?> chessgames.com chessforum (kibitz #24178) |
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| Jan-24-16 | | zanzibar: <chessgames> How do you think we should list (i.e. sort) games in a tournament? Do you see anything wrong with the <Morphy--Paulsen> game order here? 1st American Chess Congress (1857) |
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| Jan-24-16 | | zanzibar: <MissS> the court has apparently reversed its ruling: http://imgc-cn.artprintimages.com/i... |
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