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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 17 OF 91 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Nov-23-07 | | zanshin: <sentriclecub> I see you left the note for <kutz>. I was worried you might forget. First, thanks for the kind words here as well as the award for best forum layout on the main page ;-) But we all know who is doing most of the work here. <kutz> Just so you get caught up, <sentriclecub> and I have been using googledocs to pass information. It's actually very easy, but you do need a forum host who is at least moderately active. For now, <sentriclecub> has been doing the formatting and collating, so the work for another prospective host will be minor. But I think we need the new forum to be uploaded before we announce it to the Team. |
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Nov-24-07
 | | kutztown46: <Red October>
<sentriclecub> has been working with <zanshin> on his forum, using the header portion as a data-tree demo. He is now asking if there is a second temporary forum host that he can work with in the same manner. Per <zanshin>, the amount of additional work would be minor. Feel free to talk to <zanshin> about it and let me know. Thanks. |
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Nov-24-07
| | kutztown46: Temporary Forums:
(use this list if black plays 19…Qe7)
*** <Analysis of 20. Qxe7+ Rxe7 21. <Na4> <Rb8>> User: dalbertz *** <Analysis of 20. Qxe7+ Rxe7 21. <Na4> <Nb5>> User: Red October *** <Analysis of 20. Qxe7+ Rxe7 21. <Na4> <Na6>> User: capafan *** <Analysis of 20. Qxe7+ Rxe7 21. <e3> <Rb8>> User: mckmck *** <Analysis of 20. Qxe7+ Rxe7 21. <e3> <a4>> User: Deep Breath *** <Analysis of 20. Qxe7+ Rxe7 21. <e3> <Ne6>> User: zanshin *** <Analysis of 20. Qxe7+ Rxe7 21. <e3> <c5>> User: Waitaka *** <Analysis of 20. Qxe7+ Rxe7 21. <Nd4> Ne6 22. Nxe6+ <Bxe6>> User: not yet a patzer *** <Analysis of 20. Qxe7+ Rxe7 21. <Nd4> Ne6 22. Nxe6+ <Rxe6>> User: jepflast *** <Analysis of others> User: benjinathan |
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Nov-24-07
| | kutztown46: Temporary Forums:
(use this list if black plays 19…Qf6)
*** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Reb8>> User: zanshin *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Kh8>> User: Red October *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <a4>> User: dalbertz *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Red8>> User: capafan *** <Analysis of 20. <e3> <Ne6>> User: mckmck *** <Analysis of 20. <e3> <Kh8>> User: Waitaka *** <Analysis of 20. <e3> <Kg8>> User: Deep Breath *** <Analysis of 20. <e3> <a4>> User: not yet a patzer *** <Analysis of 20. <Nxe4>> User: jepflast *** <Analysis of others> User: benjinathan |
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Nov-24-07
| | kutztown46: Temporary Forums:
(use this list if black plays 19…a4)
*** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Ra6>> User: capafan *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Qf6>> User: Red October *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Nf6>> User: dalbertz *** <Analysis of 20. <e3> <Qe7> 21. Qxe7+ Rxe7> User: mckmck *** <Analysis of 20. <e3> <Qf6>> User: Deep Breath *** <Analysis of 20. <e3> <g5>> User: zanshin *** <Analysis of 20. <Nxe4>> User: Waitaka *** <Analysis of others> User: benjinathan |
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Nov-24-07
| | kutztown46: Temporary Forums:
(use this list if black plays 19…Nf6)
*** <Analysis of 20. <e3>> User: Deep Breath *** <Analysis of 20. <b3>> User: Red October *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4>> User: dalbertz *** <Analysis of 20. <h3>> User: mckmck *** <Analysis of 20. <Rc2>> User: zanshin *** <Analysis of 20. <Qa4>> User: capafan *** <Analysis of others> User: benjinathan |
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Nov-24-07
| | kutztown46: Temporary Forums:
(use this list if black plays 19…Kh8)
*** <Analysis of 20. <Na4>> User: Red October *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> Qf6> User: mckmck *** <Analysis of 20. <e3>> User: dalbertz *** <Analysis of 20. <Bf1>> User: Deep Breath *** <Analysis of 20. <Nxe4> fxe4> User: zanshin *** <Analysis of 20. <Qa4>> User: capafan *** <Analysis of others> User: benjinathan |
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Nov-24-07
| | kutztown46: Temporary Forums:
(use this list if black plays 19…Rc8)
*** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Ne6>> User: mckmck *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Na6>> User: Red October *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Qf6>> User: dalbertz *** <Analysis of 20. <h3>> User: zanshin *** <Analysis of 20. <Na4>> User: Deep Breath *** <Analysis of 20. <Qxa5> Ra8> User: Waitaka *** <Analysis of 20. <e3>> User: capafan *** <Analysis of others> User: benjinathan |
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Nov-24-07
| | kutztown46: Temporary Forums:
(use this list if black plays 19…h6)
*** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> Qf6> User: Red October *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> Rc8> User: mckmck *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> Ra6> User: dalbertz *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> Nf6> User: Deep Breath *** <Analysis of 20. <e3>> User: capafan *** <Analysis of 20. <Na4>> User: zanshin *** <Analysis of others> User: benjinathan |
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Nov-24-07
| | kutztown46: Temporary Forums:
(use this list if black plays 19…Qb8)
*** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Qb4> 21. <Nxc6>> User: Red October *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Qb4> 21. <Nxe4>> User: mckmck *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Qb4> 21. <Qxb4> axb4 22. Nxe4> User: dalbertz *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Nf6>> User: Deep Breath *** <Analysis of 20. <Na4>> User: zanshin *** <Analysis of 20. <e3>> User: capafan *** <Analysis of others> User: benjinathan |
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Nov-24-07
| | kutztown46: Temporary Forums:
(use this list if black plays 19…Na6)
*** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Nb4>> User: Red October *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Qf6>> User: dalbertz *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> Rc8>> User: capafan *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> <Qe7>> User: zanshin *** <Analysis of 20. <Na4> <Rb8>> User: mckmck *** <Analysis of 20. <Na4> <Kg8>> User: Deep Breath *** <Analysis of 20. <Na4> <Nb4>> User: Waitaka *** <Analysis of 20. <Na4> <Rc8>> User: not yet a patzer *** <Analysis of 20. <e3>> User: jepflast *** <Analysis of others> User: benjinathan |
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Nov-24-07
| | kutztown46: Temporary Forums:
(use this list if black plays 19…Kg8)
*** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> Qf6 21. <e3>> User: Red October *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> Qf6 21. <Na4>> User: mckmck *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> Qf6 21. <h3>> User: dalbertz *** <Analysis of 20. <Nd4> Qf6 21. <b3>> User: Deep Breath *** <Analysis of 20. <e3>> User: zanshin *** <Analysis of 20. <Na4>> User: capafan *** <Analysis of others> User: benjinathan |
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| Nov-25-07 | | Red October: sorry didn't see the message earlier will talk to Zanshin.. I can shift the Dutch Defence Library to a non premium bio sockpuppet of mine and use the Open Defence Forum for the data tree |
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| Nov-25-07 | | sentriclecub: <kutztown> can we discuss 2 minor suggestions ot the "if black plays 19...Qf6" First one is to limit 20.e3 to just one forum. (as you know, i've spent more hours on 19...Qf6 than anyone)
and to have at least 1 or 2 forums that go a little bit deeper than the pack. (I have a good feeling as to the main line will be). I've been packing serious analysis sessions into deeper positions than are listed. (for example, Ive analyzed all of black's and white's responses after 19...Qf6) in 100% completion and now I'm running a 25-ply analysis on the position after 20. Nd4...Reb8 21. e3...Kg8 The one forum I ultra-recommend is
<20. Nd4...Reb8 21. e3> As a matter of fact, that would be the one I'd personally like to put the most work into. (and as you know, when I cover a position, I cover it exhaustively and in massive detail). Black might not even play 19...Qf6, so we might be wasting speculative resources, but I just wanted to give my input, since I'm the King of 19...Qf6. Hope you had a Happy Thanksgiving and God speed
Jim K |
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| Nov-25-07 | | sentriclecub: Actually Kutztown, I just saw that you gave Zanshin the best forum assignment. You can ignore my request about creating <20. Nd4...Reb8 21. e3> because I'll cover it in plenty of detail, just from analyzing <20. Nd4...Reb8> and its other replies. Thanks for the dream-forum assignment once again, you can count on me to deliver great coverage of my duties. |
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| Nov-25-07 | | sentriclecub: Also Kutz,
I'll post the forum assignments into the main lobby since you will be gone. I am going to post the guess the move winners and will have 2 posts ready, one for if ...Qe7 and one for if ...Qf6 So you can leave me the responsibility of posting forum assignments as soon as the chessgames.com horse posts that chart. |
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| Nov-25-07 | | sentriclecub: GMT is late, I wont be able to post forum announcements. |
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| Nov-26-07 | | Red October: dude I read your post on the main page, sorry to be a bit thick and dim but I am very confused :) the way I understand it you dont need a separate forum for the data tree, you want it incorporated in the existing hosts forum so I dont need to update anything this move right ? |
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Nov-26-07
| | kutztown46: <Red October>
Yes, you are correct. We don't need a separate forum. <sentriclecub> asked me if he could work with another forum host in addition to <zanshin> to demonstrate the data-tree concept. I offered it to you but now it seems that <mckmck> is interested too. So I would suggest just sit tight. If <sentriclecub> contacts you and you are willing to work with him, fine, do so. I will still assign you a forum, but he would contribute information for your header and some analysis. If that happens, it does not matter to me if you start now with 19...Kh8 or wait until the next forum assignment. |
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Nov-26-07
 | | Open Defence: <kutztown46> I was getting ready to move the Dutch Defence library to another forum.. but its all good, happy to assist the team in every way :) |
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Nov-26-07
| | kutztown46: To the team: What follows is a rough draft of a proposal / request that I intend to make to chessgames.com. It is my desire to obtain the agreement to this proposal of as many team members as possible. Please read the proposal. If you agree with it and are willing to be included in a list of team members backing the proposal, please let me know. If you have suggestions to improve the proposal, please let me know that also. Let me hasten to add, however, that I believe we need to keep the proposal as free as possible from non-essential additional frills. If we load up this proposal like a Christmas tree, with all our whims and fancies, then we may doom the proposal. As a non-programmer, I do not know what would be involved to program what I am requesting. I also do not know what programming resources chessgames.com has and what other priorities would rank ahead of this request even if they agree to take this on. The benefits of the requested new feature are obvious. It will significantly strengthen the organizational effectiveness of the team. It will certainly replace the <variation index> concept, which is far too much work for anyone to keep current. It will make things much easier for anyone who wishes to write summaries. It may or may not render the temporary forum system obsolete (this remains to be seen). |
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Nov-26-07
| | kutztown46: *** <A programming request for chessgames.com from the World team> *** <Introduction>
Many of us on the World team are greatly enjoying and benefitting from the games against our esteemed opponents. We appreciate chessgames.com and all the enhancements such as the sticky and the forum system which help us to function better. Without these enhancements, the team’s efforts would be much more chaotic. However, there are still some problems which hopefully can be addressed by additional programming. <The problems>
I believe the two major problems we have arise from the sheer volume of analysis that the team does in the course of the game. The first problem is when someone wants to quickly locate analysis that he / she knows was done a week or two ago. Even with the forum system, it can be very difficult to find something that was posted more than a few days ago. The second problem is when someone wonders “has anyone analyzed … (fill in the blank)”. This can be even more difficult to answer. Two of the results of these problems are duplication of effort and important analysis not being done at all. Another problem we have is that, despite the current forum system, when someone wants to create a summary of the current position, it is prohibitively difficult to effectively locate all the pertinent analysis. |
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Nov-26-07
| | kutztown46: <The request>
I request that chessgames.com develop an “analysis tree” feature for use in future World team games. This same feature could also be used in Team White vs. Team Black games (in this case, each team would have its own tree). The analysis tree would in some respects resemble Opening Explorer. The main difference is that OE contains actual games while the analysis tree contains analysis of moves and lines that may or may not actually be played. When the game is over, the analysis tree would be kept as part of the game’s permanent record and could even be kept available for post-mortem game analysis. <How would it work?> The first time a team member accesses the analysis tree (AT), it would show a board set at the starting position (the initial “node”). A kibitzing page would be available for those who wish to comment on the starting position. There would also be a message that says “White to move – enter a legal move.” Here is where probably a chess engine would be needed to make sure the move entered is legal and has correct notation. The team member would indicate a move either by typing or by moving the piece on the board (which ever is easier to program). Suppose the move 1. e4 is entered. Now (and this is likely to be the next biggest programming challenge) a new node is created on the tree, defined as the position after 1. e4. A new kibitzing page would be dynamically created, where team members can post comments on the position after 1. e4. From that position, there would be a message that says “Black to move – enter a legal move”. Suppose 1…c5 is entered. Now another new node and kibitzing page would be created, corresponding to the position after 1. e4 c5. The team member can continue as deep into the game as he / she wishes, with new nodes and kibitzing pages being created on the way. When the second team member accesses the AT, he / she would see that 1. e4 has already been entered. The team member could add a new comment to the 1. e4 page, or enter 1. d4 or 1. Nf3 to start a new branch of the tree. Or, the team member could click on the already established 1. e4 move but then start a new branch by entering 1…e5. Obviously, in the course of the game, thousands of nodes and pages could potentially be created. At some nodes, there may be no kibitzing but other nodes may have a large amount of kibitzing. It should be possible to create links to specific nodes on the tree and copy the links to posts on the main page or forum. Although there are other ways to do this, I would suggest that the kibitzing area be located below, but on the same page as the diagram for that node. |
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Nov-26-07
| | kutztown46: <How would the AT be accessed?> Either a link could appear at the top of every page, next to the link to the sticky, or we could link to it within the sticky. Once the game starts, it would probably be best to link to the current position on the tree rather than the starting position. Once the AT is accessed, it should be possible to navigate forward and backward on the tree, as in OE. <Acknowledgements>
This request is based on an idea by <sentriclecub>. Also, at some point, <twinlark> suggested that the analysis tree could function in a manner similar to Opening Explorer. |
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| Nov-26-07 | | sentriclecub: I skimmed your posts, and will give them a better re-read tomorrow.
I don't think the timing is good.
I say the first step is to ask the team, do we like "tree" technology? I have not sought feedback on the data-tree demo, as I do not think enough time has passed. I was going to let everyone get famaliar with seeing a new layout before I asked people how they liked it. If the majority of the team doesn't like the basic idea behind "tree" technology (branching, hierarchy, organization) then this idea won't gain wide popularity. I don't think a huge change like this is correct here. We are already transitioning 2 forums into data-tree format, and today's miscommunication issue signals what can happen when we rush new things. I'm against the idea of leaving chessgames.com in charge of innovating the forum + sticky system. Just give it time Kutztown, I think that if you wait a few more weeks, you'll see how the data-tree system will get our teammates thinking of variations as a sequence of moves down a path from 2 positions that are apart only in the dimension of time. I think the only way to innovate, is to sneak in with it. Not to do it all at once. Innovation should not be left to chessgames.com
Sorry I'm preaching innovation, but I keep thinking of a great article I read in a financial magazine called "america's 20 most innovative companies" and it had great tips on the benefits of innovation and the obstacles of innovation. This is only my initial attitude, and I think that a 10% improvement to the forum+sticky system might be enough to kill my plans of a 100% improvement. The more that the forum system needs change, the greater the climate for potential innovation. I don't know your motivation for today's long posts, but I believe you are insightful into how much greater the forum system can be. Anyone can contribute analysis into a data-tree forum, and it takes me 2 minutes to copy/paste/format/edit into the appropriate document/section/eval and then it gets loaded into the next update. I fired up some interest in October about how bad the forum + sticky system is, compared to what it can be. Let us wait a couple more weeks, let us ask our teammates if they like looking at chess in an analytical (branching) mathematical way. We need to not rush innovation or else we risk its very acceptance. |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 17 OF 91 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
A majority vote for 1-0 means we resign. 