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The Challenge
Team White vs Team Black
C U R R E N T   P O S I T I O N

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   Chessgames Challenge
Can large groups of chess fans team up to create a chess masterpiece? Find out in Chessgames Challenge!  You can vote for the move you think is best, and discuss the game with other members in the Kibitzer's Corner.

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[flip board] GAME OVER: 1/2-1/2 [flip board]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e5 h6 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.bxc3 Ne4 8.Qg4 Kf8 9.Bd3 Nxd2 10.Kxd2 c5 11.Nf3 c4 12.Be2 Bd7 13.Qf4 Nc6 14.h4 b5 15.a3 a5 16.Rhb1 Rb8 17.h5 Qe7 18.g4 Ke8 19.Qe3 Kd8 20.Ng1 Kc7 21.f4 g6 22.Nf3 gxh5 23.gxh5 Rhg8 24.f5 Qf8 25.Nh4 b4 26.axb4 axb4 27.f6 Ra8 28.cxb4 Rxa1 29.Rxa1 Qxb4+ 30.Qc3 Qb6 1/2-1/2
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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 185 OF 185 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jul-22-11  blue wave: <Apr-23-11
blue wave: <Tabanus><9...Nxd2 10.Kxd2 c5 11.Nf3 Nc6 12.Qf4 c4 13.Be2 Qa5 14.a3 Bd7 15.h4 Kg8 16. h5 Rf8 17.g4 f6> This seems like a strong solid line for black. I have one suggestion to try and speed up whites attack.

Play g4 and g5 first (before h4 and h5) to save time, especially if black plays Qa5 in the opening.

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Bb4 5. e5 h6 6. Bd2 Bxc3 7. bxc3 Ne4 8. Qg4 Kf8 9. Bd3 Nxd2 10. Kxd2 c5 11. Nf3 Nc6 12. Qf4 c4 13. Be2 Qa5 14. a3 Bd7 15. g4 Kg8 16. g5 Ne7 17. gxh6 Rxh6 *

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hiarcs13.2mp - multiPV[2]
21/1 00:05:23 155346024 480525

+0.57 18. h4 Kf8 19. h5 b5 20. Nh2 f5 21. exf6EP Rxf6 22. Qe5

+0.05 18. h3 Ng6 19. Qg4 Qd8 20. h4 f5 21. Qg3 Be8 22. Ng5 Qe7 23. a4 Nf8 24. a5 Bh5 25. f3 Rc8 26. Rhg1 Nh7 27. a6>>

This suggestion I made I think in hindsight may have been better then 14.h4.

Jul-22-11  blue wave: Also

blue wave: btw I've based my analysis on the common theme moves of <16...Rb8> Rybka 29 Ply - <17.g4 Qe7 18.h5 Kg8> Pretty likely. Of course I could be wrong but nice moves all round.

Rybka 22 Ply - <19.Qe3 g5> I like Qe3, I like the solid feel of this move. Defends c3, d4 & e5. But I'm intrigued at to why Rybka and Hiarcs push the g pawn to g5? I don't really understand why? Why does black lash out like this? Is black starting to feel some pressure? Or is it simply because white can no longer play Qf6 after moving to e3? Still, I think the move g5 can create a weaker pawn structure around the black king and give white the opportunity to place the rooks in attack on the h file.

At this point I felt it worth looking at the move <20.hxg6EP fxg6> Black has no other option as I can see? Now at this point white has to try to get in f4 as far as I can see? Blacks going to mount pressure on the f file. So white responds with <<<<21.Ne1>>> Qf7 22. f4 Kg7> The black rooks really need to get in touch with each other and this move strengthens the weak pawns a little. I have wondered if moving the king to g7 is a mistake here for black? Maybe it should be getting out and going to e7?

<23.Ng2> White is now ready to switch to a kingside attack. Whites f pawn is well protected by the knight. The h file looks attractive for an attack with rooks.

Analysis provided provided by haircs13.2mp - 23 ply

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23/6 01:48:01 3073758K 474268

<+0.58> 23... Rb6 24. Bf3 Ne7 25. Rh1 Ra6 26. Rh4 Raa8 27. Rg1 Rab8

<+0.61> 23... Ne7 24. Rh1 Rh7 25. Rag1>

I still feel that the moves of <Ne1> then <Ng2> for white hold a lot of potential in this line. Mind you in our game the black king didn't go to g8. But still I feel there is potential in the knight going to the g2 square.

Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: <WinKing> <cro777> Why dongle am flag on per it salvationed I. Nut you champ any grace weave I knight rodger draw (;) off again looking for bit...

29.Rh1 Ba4 30.Rh2 Ra6 31.c3 Bd7 32.Rh3 Ra2+ 33.Ke1 Ra1+ 34.Ke2 Ra2+ 35.Kf1 Ra7 36.Kg2 Ra1 37.Kh2 Ra2 38.Kg2 Rb2 39.Bh5 Rxh6 40.Rgg3

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Jul-23-11  capafan: In some games, it is easy to judge in hindsight alternatives that could have been played and resulting positions; however, there is a reason this variation is still a mystery. Both sides, it seems, have resources the chess engines do not fully understand. I dare say both teams could replay the game seeking not to overlook the same opportunities and yet not reach a better result.

<chrisowen>Your commentary is reminiscent of an author I much admire and one whose one book in particular I have read (and reread) many times...James Joyce, "Finnegan's Wake". You both may share a common goal in your writing.

Jul-23-11  Thanh Phan: <capafan:<chrisowen>Your commentary is reminiscent of an author I much admire and one whose one book in particular I have read (and reread) many times...James Joyce, "Finnegan's Wake". You both may share a common goal in your writing.> ~Thank you - My search engine had an outpouring of non-related content when search some lines from <chrisowen> during last challenge.
Premium Chessgames Member

click for larger view



<imag>: "We may want to play 15.a3 to play <16.Rhb1> next... then <b4> is stopped for the moment (Black may still play it, but it is not very effective) and we may proceed with <h5/g4>.

<cornflake>: " Then in some sequence of moves <h5,g4,Qe3,Nh4,and f4>. That's the general scheme of play but the move order depends on what black does. Eventually after breaking through kingside we bring the rooks back kingside".

<David2009>: "16.Rhb1 is very defensive, and is well met by 16...Ne7. I once again propose <16.Nh2> intending <Bh5> followed by <Ng4>".


<capafan>: "I am still trying to understand the rationale behind <16.Rhb1>"

cro777: "Realizing you don't know is often as important as getting the answer".

<capafan>: "I feel very "important" right now".

Premium Chessgames Member
  WinKing: I remember thinking the move <16.Rhb1> was an inaccuracy on white's part. Figured the rooks might be better placed on the kingside in support of the g & h pawn(s) advances. All the engines seemed to love it though.
Jul-23-11  blue wave: <capafan><THE PUZZLE OF THE DAY - WHAT IS THE RATIONALE BEHIND 16.Rhb1?>


Here are some patzer thoughts.

b4 is coming too quickly for white.
Our king is at d2.
The exchange of pawns after b4 leaves our king exposed. White needs some more time to advance the g and h pawns.

Jul-23-11  blue wave: <HOW WOULD BLACK PLAY AFTER <14.g4 and 15.g5>? I suppose black would play Qe7 still and Ke8?
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: <cro777><You both may share a common goal in your writing.>

Why see it yaw slide now dont rook flash your eye b5 see?

If you clean up sinced loaded f5 duck dropping f4 the kid?

off n running cons tip I tried bleach this abismol defence white wagging his tail or e8 repent.

In dr it esoteric at h5 bon santi

A gm na leaf it in caminos it's brow nt g3 h4 Ni

Again raps I veto f3 cry me safe gabonk you 40

yes dash me note in spirits e6 a breeze !?

Jul-23-11  blue wave: <capafan><THE PUZZLE OF THE DAY - WHAT IS THE RATIONALE BEHIND 16.Rhb1?>

"FEAR" of b4 and losing.

Jul-24-11  blue wave: I think after the last team game where we played the RISKY g4 as white and lost. I was less inclined to take any risks. So in choosing between <Rhb1> and <g4> I went for what I felt was the safer option.

I was in no mood for another lost game. So I think you could say that psychology played a part for me. I suppose in any series of games, previous loses can affect how one continues to play after the lose.

Jul-24-11  capafan: <cro777>


<16.g4 b4 17.h5 bxc3+ 18.Kxc3 >

I would argue that the "threat" of b4 in most instances (e.g. <bluewave>'s response) in this line is more dangerous than its implementation. After Black plays b4 the threat no longer exists and despite the initial eval, White is less at risk not more. Black's Queen may be lured away from defense on the kingside but I am unsure (Q.E.D.) that Black can obtain anything of lasting value. As shown in the game, on a long-term basis, White cannot effectively prevent (only deter b4) by Rhb1 or any other move.

This was my original point. Given this, either White chooses to be aggressive and pursue the kingside push or hope that Black makes an error...which in CC play is unlikely at a high level.

Premium Chessgames Member
  cro777: <blue wave> I agree completely with <capafan>. That was our original point.

In the most recent (2010) CC game Thomas Rattinger (2509) played 16.Qe3. We also analyzed 16.g4 and 16.h5.

In certain variations <Rhb1> might be necessary later if Black played <...b4>, for instance

16.h5 b4 17.axb4 axb4 18.Rhb1

Premium Chessgames Member
  cro777: <chrisowen> In 2008, Chessgames helped a research study on chess aeshetics for University of Malaya (Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia). This survey and its results were further analyzed and used as part of a computational study of aesthetics in chess.

The survey was intended to gauge human player aesthetic assessment of direct mate-in-3 combinations. Tournament games between expert players and compositions were used in varying mixtures. Respondents were asked to rate them between 1 and 10 based on beauty.

Here is the combination with the highest estimated value (8.1):

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1.Qd6+ Kxd6 2.e8N+ Kd5 3.Nc7#

It is easy for computers to find the solution. But to conceive something like that, much more is needed.

Your lines in this game might be candidates for a simillar research.

Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: <cro777> F5 in turn it said a lot.

Eddy MC g4 g5 net ice wink e7 f5 reccy 4h air line fraca grey.

G6 light bone head be8 done.

A fad extra f7 point boundary leg in cover.

Ke2 owl uncertain long hike b5 a4 gain black punting F4 eg good move ripple or flake and baking drew keep mum black? Bye.

Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: Page 106 tent aground in it now acking down 16.g4 rb8 and black play b4 id rook b1 handle it c3 in faith fin even. Train h6 namby pamby honed zz 21.bg4 ( )

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Premium Chessgames Member
  cro777: <chrisowen> In the <16.g4> line, I was very attracted by this game of GM Sergey Volkov, an expert in the French McCutcheon, (Radovanovic - Volkov, 6. Open, Korinthos GRE, 2002)

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<16. g4> b4 17. h5 bxc3+ 18. Ke3 Ne7 19. Nh4 Ba4 20. Ng6+ Nxg6 21.hxg6 Qe7 22. g5 Bxc2 23. gxh6

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23... Bxg6 24. Rag1 Kg8 25. hxg7 Kxg7 26. Bh5 c2 27. Ke2 Rag8 28. Bxg6

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28... Rxh1 29. Rxh1 fxg6 30. Qh6+ Kf7 31. Rh3 Ke8 32. Qd2 Kf7 33. Qxc2 Qg5 34. Rf3+ Kg7 35. Qa4 Qg4 36. Qd7+ Kh6 37. Qd6 Rc8 38. Qe7 c3 (0-1)

Jul-24-11  blue wave: <capafan>
<I would argue that the "threat" of b4 in most instances (e.g. <bluewave>'s response) in this line is more dangerous than its implementation.>

I think your right in hindsight.

Some in our team were not happy with 16.Rhb1, and I'm starting to understand why now.

Thanks for your keen insight.

Cheers Blue Wave.

Jul-24-11  capafan: <blue wave>

If you read between the lines in Black's analyses, we considered playing b4 at almost every move from move 15 even advanced to the stage of a joke. <AK> kept track of the number of engine lines containing the move b4 until, as <Tabanus> says, the sword of Damokles finally came down. However, at the point b4 was played it was anticlamactic being less of a sword and more of a pen-knife. It was only after continually analyzing b4 do I come to the conclusion that its bark is worse than its bite. :)

I have mixed feelings about the Black side of the McCutcheon as I believe there is still much to learn; but playing white against the McCutcheon, I might tend to be more, rather than less, aggressive (definitely if playing OTB rather than CC)... along the lines <YouRang> and <cro777> suggest. The WKR seems to be a more effective offensive rather than defensive piece. In addition, in many lines whereby Black chooses to play g6 rather than f6, the h-pawn becomes a terrible liability as it cannot be defended by either the BN or BB. Playing Black, I would search for a better placement of the BQN and BQB in the is amazing given the structure of the position, White cannot exploit the immobility of either Black minor piece. <AK> had some interesting ideas early on of playing Bd7..Bc6..Nd7; however this does not always work as <YouRang> the search for improvements will go on despite our struggle here.

Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: <cro777> g5 or key par krap hi shoot b4 river east bad for black roar it in g4 g5 h5 im likedy split can <17rb1> chuck night a2 in mock up you rain down pat afile on me

17.axb4 axb4 18.cxb4 Nxb4 19.Qe3 Na2 20.Rhb1 Qa5 21.c3 Ke7 22.g5 Rhb8 23.Bd1 Qa3 24.Bc2 h5 25.Ng1 Rb3 26.Ne2 Rab8 27.Ke1 Rb2 28.g6 Ba4 29.Qg5+ f6 30.exf6+ gxf6

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31.Qg3 e5 32.Bf5 Rxb1+ 33.Bxb1 Qb2 34.dxe5 Qxb1+ 35.Rxb1 Rxb1+ 36.Nc1 Rxc1+ 37.Ke2 Nxc3+ 38.Kf3 Ne4 39.exf6+ Ke6 40.Qb8 Nxf6 41.Kf4 Rf1

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Jul-27-11  blue wave: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Bb4 5. e5 h6 6. Bd2 Bxc3 7. bxc3 Ne4 8. Qg4 Kf8 9. Bd3 Nxd2 10. Kxd2 c5 11. Nf3 c4 12. Be2 Bd7 13. Qf4 Nc6 14. h4 b5 15. a3 a5 16. h5 b4 17. g4 bxc3+ 18. Kxc3 f6 19. Nh4 Ke8 20. exf6 gxf6 21. Ng6 e5 22. Qe3 Rg8 23. Rad1 *

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19/1 00:01:47 337270332 3132541

0.00 23. Rad1 a4 24. dxe5 d4 25. Rxd4 Qa5 26. Kb2 Qb6 27. Kc3 Qa5

0.00 23. f4 a4 24. fxe5 Qa5 25. Kb2 Qb6 26. Kc3 Qa5

0.00 23. Rhd1 Be6 24. dxe5 fxe5 25. Nxe5

Premium Chessgames Member
  WinKing: Hey <Team White> & <Team Black> members sign up for the <GM Varuzhan Akobian> vs <The World> game. Starts August 10th.

Conditions for this game:

Rate of play: 48 hours per half-move
Type of voting: OPEN
Rollover time: 13:00 (USA/Eastern)
Extensions for the GM: 5
Fischer Random Chess: NO
Are computers allowed? YES
The game will begin on August 10th at 1:00 pm (USA/Eastern).

Jul-29-11  morfishine: <WinKing> Thanks for the broadcast! Excellent job you did for team black. Great to be back on the same team again: Looking forward to it
Mar-09-12  TheHun: Trying to search specific positions and analyze following lines. Is there a means of paying premium fee through carrier, as only access to internet is via cell? Any replies welcome: atill_a@hotmail dot com or Chess_man@live dot ca Please and Thank You.
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