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|Aug-19-05|| ||euripides: <WMD <passes RookFile an Irony Detector>> Didn't you check it was working ?|
|Aug-19-05|| ||sitzkrieg: I guess Ughaibu is kidding..
But to chancho; Alekhine was not playing for the Germans or representing the Germans; the German favorite was probably Junge. Both Keres and Alekhine had at least partly a reason to play to earn money for a living. Keres won some games but just didnt play as strong as Alekhine during this period. This may be cause he had psychological problems because of the war, but he certainly did not have to throw his games when playing Alekhine.
An other note;
Before the war; at the Olympiad Alekhine had strongly insulted the Germans; and his later writings ( he himself says he didnt write them; probably a lie) are probably more to be explained as out of opportunism then out of conviction- that doesnt make it any less bad of course.
As for Euwe (@Koster); Euwe had a job even during the war; and didnt need to play. Also he played much less tournaments before and after the war too. However i think it doens matter cause Alekhine and Keres were not wrong for playing chess during the war.
Last but not least;
maybe there is some explanation in the fact that both players had suffered much from the communists in Russia, the arch enemies of the Germans.
|Aug-19-05|| ||chancho: Poor,Poor,Alekhine. He plays in 7 tournaments in Germany, and German occupied territories. He writes Anti Semitic articles downgrading jews. He is a welcomed guest at Hans Frank's house, and he is doing all this under duress. Aww schucks!Keres did play in German tournaments, but more than likely he REALLY was under duress.His country was under the control of the enemy after all.|
|Aug-19-05|| ||sitzkrieg: Lol, read! I dont say he is poor; i say he did nothing wrong playing those tournaments and a man has got to make a living if u are a chess players like this.. His articles; assuming they were his ( the investigation never took place) were indeed disgusting from what i heard; but that is another thing.|
It is easy for u to make comments in this situation..
|Aug-19-05|| ||chancho: <Sitzkrieg> You on the other hand have the answers? Get real. The anti Semitic papers that were written by Alekhine, were purportedly seen in his wife's effects ten years later.I also read somewhere that all his papers are set to be released for public scrutiny in 2006. I guess we will then find out for sure if Alekhine was in collusion with the Nazis.What about his socializing with Hans Frank during the war? A known Jewish mass murderer, can you explain that?|
|Aug-19-05|| ||chancho: I did not mean Alekhine was literally poor as in needing money. Although he was playing for money. I was just being sarcastic.|
|Aug-19-05|| ||Sneaky: Lasker made comments in some of his writing of "the inferior races of mankind", although he didn't specify exactly which races these were. Such opinions at the time were considered self-evident and not controversial in the least.|
So Alekhine is said to have written about the differences between "Aryan Chess" and "Jewish Chess." Well, maybe he did and maybe he didn't, but who really cares? It's not a sign of Alekhine's character, it's a sign of the times.
|Aug-20-05|| ||ughaibu: Sneaky: what's your source for that? There's a story by Kmoch in which Lasker illustrates his contempt for the racist views of national socialists by explaining how he could teach the meaning of 'i' to a kid taken straight from the jungles of Africa. It doesn't fit with an idea of inferior races as I read it.|
|Aug-20-05|| ||chancho: <Sneaky>Those articles seemingly harmless,as they were.Were written by Alekhine at the behest of the Germans.They were published in the Parisian Newspaper,which was German controlled at the time.The Germans were problably already proceeding with the annihilation of Jews.France was Nazi controlled,So the Jews there,were most likely getting rounded up for extermination.Alekhine was not suffering any privation while in Nazi hands so one can infer that he was in collusion with them.|
|Aug-20-05|| ||RookFile: I was reading a biography of Alekhine.
It gives an interesting bit of information about the tournament where this game was played. At this
location, the Sound of Music was later filmed. At the time, this tournament location was Hitler's summer residence, and he probably popped in to watch a few of the games from this tournament.
|Aug-20-05|| ||Speed Zamboni Driver: < WMD >
Maybe Keres being forced to blow the WC tournament IS true.
Stalin had people sent to the gulag for far less than this photo of a pleasant evening with the German Wermacht.
|Aug-20-05|| ||WMD: <Stalin had people sent to the gulag for far less than this photo of a pleasant evening with the German Wermacht.>|
As opposed to, say, the Italian Wehrmacht?
But I accept the point, even if it's one I wasn't arguing against.
|Sep-25-09|| ||WhiteRook48: Keres gets destroyed!|
|Jun-27-13|| ||jerseybob: <chancho: Anybody who thinks Keres was really feeling nice and comfy playing Alekhine in this game,(while his country was being occupied by the Nazis)>
Let's add a little to that: Technically yes, at that moment Keres' country Estonia was occupied by the Nazi thugs. But earlier, in 1940, it was occupied by the Soviet thugs, who would re-occupy in 1944. Since 1940 Keres, like it or not, was a "Soviet" player, whereas up till 1939 he'd been playing for his own free country. Even though his career from 1940 to 1975 was filled with sparkling accomplishments, in my opinion he was never quite the same player as a "Soviet" as he'd been as a free man.|
|Jan-28-17|| ||Ilkka Salonen: It's really sharp. I wonder, if Alekhine's ideals of Aryan chess played a part in that. I mean, players might be bit afraid to play unsharply in those conditions. Even if Spiellmann had, but only for money. (I'm sorry, the later part just is kind of funny example to me of what utter nonsense Alekhine related articles, I guess most here know which I mean, are)|
|Jan-28-17|| ||aliejin: Every time appears a game of chess
Of that time, especially if it is from Alekhine,
Falls into anachronisms.
Being anti-Semitic in those years
It was the most common thing in the world
Bareimbon says that a German
, Since the second half of the 19th century,
must Be anti-Semitic, if he wanted to be good German
The Jews were a minority, that little
mattered to the common European
And being Nazi was as valid a position as any other. The whole Vatican, and the Catholic world, was Nazi sympathizing because it fought against atheist bolcheviques (The real threat to the most)
In occupied Europe there were millions of people
Of ultra right that sympathized with the Nazis
And helped them.
Nobody had, of course, the perspective,
And the knowledge, even remotely, that we have
|Jan-28-17|| ||morfishine: <aliejin> Well put. I don't believe Alekhine was anti-semitic. He had too many Jewish friends and a jewish wife; and besides, the evidence just doesn't add up, something's definitely fishy there|
|Jan-28-17|| ||ColeTrane: I wonder if Trump is anti Semitic, or if he just has enmity towards Latinos, Muslims, African Americans, the disabled, and women....?|
|Jan-28-17|| ||ChessHigherCat: <chancho: I did not mean Alekhine was literally poor as in needing money> That's the sort of Tower-of-Babel misinterpretation you find all the time in the German news rag "Der Spiegel". I remember when they mistranslated "The State Department said it was not to free to disclose that information" into the German equivalent of "It said it could not disclose that information free of charge" (implying that it was asking for a bribe in the middle of a White-House press conference!) <Morfishine I don't believe Alekhine was anti-semitic. He had too many Jewish friends and a jewish wife;> Well Fischer had a Jewish mother and definitely fit the Nazi definition of Jewish himself, does that mean he wasn't antisemitic? There's no accounting for the logic of madness.
<ColeTrane> All those people are okay so long as they're fellow multi-billionaires.|
|Jan-28-17|| ||zanzibar: It's funny how the thread, sitting idle for so many years (literally), suddenly lights up again.|
|Jan-28-17|| ||thegoodanarchist: <acirce: <Playing in a tournament in a country does not necessarily indicate sympathy for its politics.>|
What about playing in a tournament on occupied territory, as Keres did? And in the middle of WW2 at that? How would it look if a top player today played in a tournament organized by Israel for propaganda value on the West Bank?>
Better to play chess than to be sent to fight in Stalingrad!
|Jan-28-17|| ||morfishine: <Cole Trane> You forgot sanctuary cities and gangs. I'd love to see Trump "send in the tanks" in Chicago and put those gangs in their place. |
Castro ran the mob out of Cuba with those tactics and held onto power til he died. Not that I support Castro and/or communism, but the show of force and resolve was impressive.
|Jan-28-17|| ||Jack Kerouac: Paul was quite good, but his temperament allowed him to be dominated by the elite masters.
Alternate fact #14...|
|Jan-28-17|| ||RandomVisitor: 14...Nxe5 15.dxc5 Bxd5 16.Bxe5 Rxc5 17.Bxd5 or 17.Bxf6 =.|
|Apr-25-17|| ||visayanbraindoctor: <Jack Kerouac: Paul was quite good, but his temperament allowed him to be dominated by the elite masters.>|
If I may disagree, Paul Keres was never dominated by any leading master, except for Botvinnik (and only in the 1940s upward, as he probably played stronger chess than Botvinnik in the 1930s,) and Alekhine (he could score only one win against AAA in all their meetings in the late 30s and early 40s despite the fact that Keres was in his early peak).
On the other hand, Keres played the other World Champions to about par, and he dominated both Tal and Korchnoi.
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