|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 10 OF 22 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Aug-22-11 | | fab4: I will say .. this 'ignore list' has been annoying me ever since I hit this site.. The 'ignore' option is used too often in vindictive fashion .. as a weapon of spite. As for <Dr Mal> .. What's your rating ? I'm intrigued. |
|
| Aug-22-11 | | fab4: This is an open site and forum ..
Which is democracy at it's most raw..
Games like this do suffer tho under such circumstances.. |
|
| Aug-22-11 | | I play the Fred: <The 'ignore' option is used too often in vindictive fashion> I don't care about <that>. <DrMAL> and indeed, anyone has the right to use the thing however they want. But this <hurricane of irrelevant posts> about the current status of his ignore list is aggravating as hell. |
|
| Aug-22-11 | | Petrosianic: <And do we need <post after post after post after post after post after post after post> to reference that particular ignore list?> I'd say no. If you want to notify people on your list not to bother trying to get an answer out of you, just post the list on your profile page. |
|
| Aug-22-11 | | fab4: < Petrosianic: <And do we need <post after post after post after post after post after post after post> to reference that particular ignore list?>
I'd say no. If you want to notify people on your list not to bother trying to get an answer out of you, just post the list on your profile page.> And bury ones head in the desert ?
the 'ignore' option used correctly is fine..
Used incorrectly, as it so often is on this site, and it results in head in sand stuff.. and ridiculous scenarios as I experienced recently, when I had a certain poster who was 'ignoring' me getting involved in a thread which was all too mine lol .. which at the time I felt was a bit rich.. and still do.. You put someone on 'ignore' and that's that. Don't then get involved in threads and arguments they so obviously started lol .. You're reneging your right to get involved when you press that 'ignore' option' .. |
|
| Aug-24-11 | | qqdos: <DrMAL> it's time to get back to the moves! It really is most disconcerting to have "a problem-like (conclusive) win" torn from one's grasp only to be left clutching a miserable "at least draws". Hence I shall declare an interim time-out while keeping faith with Bobby's "little gem". |
|
| Aug-24-11 | | drnooo: I can see ignore on something like a game, when you[re playing, some chatter there. But even the most veritable idiot has occasionally something worth listening to. Otherwise let them ramble on. Lamont included. Also what the hell ever happened to the nattering nabob, Lady In Black. Did she hie herself off to Norway or Sweden looking for Carlsen?//If so, let's hope her well. |
|
| Aug-25-11 | | Everett: <As for <Dr Mal> .. What's your rating ? I'm intrigued.> By my estimation his rating is excellent when he is using a program surreptitiously and claiming it as his own analysis. Otherwise, I have no idea. So it looks like Qf4 a move earlier is not a forced win? This is intriguing! Is this another busted <truth> in our world of chess? |
|
| Aug-25-11 | | Everett: <dannygjk> <*sigh* A position can be said to be won, even if noone has demonstrated it.> Name a GM who would agree with you. Mind you, Fischer and Geller thought they demonstrated a win which is why they said it. |
|
| Aug-28-11 | | DrMAL: <qqdos: <DrMAL> it's time to get back to the moves!> Good point. I mean, one thing I did not consider carefully enough in option A) above was 24.Rh3 instead of 24.Bb3 it also looked good. So I will get into that one before trying more on the endgame I presented from 24.Bb3 before. If nothing else, it makes for a very hard problem to analyze and learn from, cheers. |
|
| Aug-28-11 | | DrMAL: It looks like Fischer did have a win after all with 24.Rh3! in option A) above. So far, the best I could find for a defense is 24...Rc8 25.Bb3 d5 26.Qe5! Bd6 27.Qe6 Re8 28.Qf7 Be5 29.Bxe5 Rxe5 30.Kxb2 (or 30.Qxa7) but will put it on Houdini to compute until tomorrow to check. This would indeed be nice to learn! |
|
| Aug-28-11 | | newton296: Robert James Fischer - Efim Geller, Skopje 1967
here is the key moment when fisher blunders into a loss 
click for larger viewAnalysis by Houdini 1.5a w32:
1. = (-0.12): 21.Rh5 Qc8 22.Bxg7+ Kxg7 23.Qf4 d5
2.  (-1.89): 21.Qf4 Ba4 22.Qg4 Bf6 23.Rh5 Rxf7
fisher's 2 top choices according to houdini. fisher plays Qf4? thinking probably Qh6 or Qg4 next move threatening mate. it looks like he just missed the simple move Bf6 saves the day for black! |
|
| Aug-29-11 | | qqdos: <DrMAL> I will await the results of your research with hope, if not trepidation! In the meantime, in the line you are looking at, can I suggest 26.g4! a5 27.a4 (27...Qa3 28. Bxb2 Bxc2+ 29.Bxc2 doesn't work for Black) 27...Bf8 (or...Rf8) as a potentially viable alternative. Also after 24.Rh3! Rf8 may need to be checked. I intend to revert. |
|
| Aug-29-11 | | DrMAL: <qqdos> Yes, black has several possibly good defenses, I had played through that move quite a bit as well. It's taking unusually long to verify. Overnight Houdini changed it's line to 24...d5 (from 24...Rc8 all along, but it had not reached a conclusion for black at move 27 yet, changing from a5 to a6).
click for larger view Houdini_15a_x64:
26/77 11:05:01 180,889,786,588
-1.32 24. ... d5 25.Rd2 Bf8 26.Rb3 Qe7 27.Bxf6 Qxf6
25/77 7:17:03 121,231,619,806
-1.40 24. ... Rc8 25.Bb3 d5 26.Qe5 Re8 27.Qc7 a6
At over 300 billion positions now, I will let it compute at least through depth 27/77 possibly even longer depending on what it concludes. I expect it to revert to 24...Rc8 again then (with maybe 26...Bd6 and 27...Re8 I think that this is slightly better). |
|
| Aug-29-11 | | DrMAL: Houdini still prefers 26...d5 in deeper computation, I guess my line with 26...Rc8 was not quite the strongest: Houdini_15a_x64: 27/83 24:03:30 390,185,543,345
-1.29 24. ... d5 25.Rd2 Bf8 26.Rb3 Qe7 27.Bxf6 Qxf6 28.Qxf6 gxf6 I will let it compute until tomorrow until the next depth is finished just to make sure, the position is unusually complicated. |
|
| Aug-30-11 | | qqdos: <DrMAL> in haste, I assume all your evaluations are positive (in favour of White) and not negative as you have posted them. Interesting how in the latest line, the emphasis has shifted to the Q-side. |
|
| Aug-30-11 | | DrMAL: <qqdos> Yes, Houdini's evaluations are relative to the side making the move. I guess it shifted to 24...d5 because this liquidates the most a common defense strategy as you know. It is still computing depth 28/83 with 700 billion positions now. If it sticks with 24...d5 it seems safe to agree this is stronger than 24...Rc8 (I thought counterattack was best). |
|
| Aug-31-11 | | qqdos: <DrMAL> my head is spinning already. Is this the US National Deficit?!? |
|
| Aug-31-11 | | newton296: <DrMAL: It is still computing depth 28/83 with 700 billion positions now> is this your way of saying "look guys , my new computer is so fast! it has calculated 700 billion positions!" |
|
| Aug-31-11 | | DrMAL: Well, it's finally more than the $500B+ US Defense Budget, larger than the next 15 countries combined (apparently, we have a lot of enemies) so it's getting close. Although engines have simpler criteria than human they have a huge advantage in speed and tirelessness. After nearly a trillion positions, Houdini prefers 24...d5 slightly over 24...Rc8 Houdini_15a_x64: 28/83 56:18:53 928,568,169,757
-1.32 24. ... d5 25.Rd2 Bf8 26.Rg3 h6 27.Rb3 Qe7 28.Bh5 a5 I had found a win after 24...Rc8 so I adopted 24...d5 instead and will show the win after it in my next post. It was bothering me that Fischer's intuition was for a win (and mine and others after analyzing), difficult to imagine that failing. I guess the fact that ole AJ's random selection for Fischer to have a "draw at best" had to be wrong as well, another reason to keep looking LOL, cheers. |
|
| Aug-31-11 | | DrMAL: The strongest defense to Fischer's 20.Qf4! is 20...cxb2 21.Rh5 Nf6! 22.Rh6! Rxf7 23.Bxf7 Be4 24.Rh3! d5 25.Rd2 Bf8 26.Rg3 h6 27.Rb3 Qe7 28.Bh5 a5! 29.Rb6! Nxh5 30.Qxh6+ Kg8 31.Qxh5 a4
click for larger view From here, white wins either way the b2 pawn is taken but king takes is slightly stronger. 32.Kxb2 Qc7 33.a3 Rb8 34.Rxb8 Qxb8+ 35.Ka2 Qc7 36.Bb2 Black can also play 36...Qc4+ or 36...Bxc2 but 36...Qc5 was verified by Houdini as stronger so, as above, I only include this line for brevity. 36...Qc5 37.Qe2 From here, again black has several nearly equivalent choices (Qc8 or Qc7 or Qc6) all losing, I leave it up to the reader to examine other lines. 37...Qc7 38.Qg4 Bxc2 39.Qe6+ Kh7 40.Rf2 Qc4+ 41.Ka1 Qd3 42.Qh3+ Kg8 43.Qxd3 Bxd3 44.Bd4 Now, Be4 and Be7 and g6 transpose as do other moves later on, whatever choice black plays untangles in a similar way. 44...Be4 45.Kb2 Be7 46.g3 g6 47.Rf4 Bg5 48.Rf1 Bd3 49.Rf3 Bc4 50.Bc5 Bh6 51.Kc3 Bb3 52.Rf2 Bd1 53.Rf1 Bg4 54.Re1! other moves like 54.Kb4 also win this one seems fastest where, again, black has three moves that transpose. 54...Bf3 55.Re8+! Kf7 56.Re7+ Kg8 57.Ra7 Bd1 58.h4! Bc1 59.Ra8+! Kg7 60.g4! d4+ 61.Bxd4+ Kf7 62.h5! gxh5 63.gxh5 and the win is obvious from here. 
click for larger view This was one of the most complicated games I have ever analyzed, a true masterpiece from both sides. Pity that Fischer never considered 21...Nf6! one difference between him and Kasparov (another reason I personally think Kasparov was the greater player) is that Kasparov learned from Botvinnik to revisit games, and he did this more diligently than any other WC. |
|
| Aug-31-11 | | qqdos: <DrMAL> what a monumental effort! Thanx. There's a vast amount to digest now and I shall continue to keep faith with Bobby (and Geller) that this game was winnable after 20.Qf4! and (as you have demonstrated) more. However I feel there may yet be a wrinkle or two to emerge. In the meantime I fully agree what a fantastically complex game this is and an abiding masterpiece. I don't take sides as between GK and Fischer - they were incomparable and I hope we may still see some more gems from GK when he realises what a dead-end politics are. |
|
| Aug-31-11 | | DrMAL: <qqdos> Thanx, it was instructive to me. If someone finds a hole in it, more power to them LOL. I left all the many side variations out, this was already a lot of information and a long enough post. Hope it was helpful to others as well as showing that Fischer's amazing intuition was right after all, cheers. |
|
| Oct-04-11 | | DrMAL: <I play the Fred: "Just put him on your ignore," some of you are saying. The problem with that is that I'd be missing out on a number of very informative posts. When <DrMAL> isn't trolling, he posts a lot of useful stuff.> Thank you, I took this suggestion. It helps when people on here are not very rude or constantly childish. Actually, real DrMAL is my friend (and student) plays 2200+ who started posting at my suggestion, then stopped and gave account to me during summer. We had some fun laughing at behavior but in end it is not so funny for adult to behave that way, sometimes ignore seems only way out, cheers. |
|
Dec-28-11
 | | kingscrusher: I have video annotated this game here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLrF... |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 10 OF 22 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
