< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
|Jun-10-09|| ||Benzol: <Petrosianic> Vlastimil Hort is one player I can think of. But there wouldn't be too many.|
|Jun-10-09|| ||Tessie Tura: Kavalek was slightly younger than Fischer but I don't think he ever beat him.|
|Jun-11-09|| ||vonKrolock: Well, grāces to this discussion, now my Game Collection: ROOT OF SPAWN or Bobby vs The Youth grows to 26 games (formerly 25 I missed Kavalek, a good hint by <Tessie Tura> - They are both from 43, but RJF some months older - well they played just once time, a draw in Sousse - Currently, my hope for some new additions are mainly in the early years (some esoteric names, like <keypusher> suggested one I would surelly miss...)|
<Benzol> Hort was already... actually, he's one of the stars in that collection, with quite a few hard fought games...
Another hope is the games he played privatelly, sooner or later something may appear...
|Jun-11-09|| ||Benzol: Fischer played Hans Ree at Netanya in 1968.|
|Sep-14-09|| ||WhiteRook48: 50 g7
echo of Tal's ...b2! against Fischer in 1959
|Apr-06-10|| ||miguelito: and rubineti in 1970 .|
|Jun-07-12|| ||menth0r: We have to respect a great chess player as Fischer ofc. But he was human and he lose. Gheorghiu did a better game and he won. Don;t say Fischer wasn;t serious etc etc. He always wish to win but not everytime made it.As many other great players he have his negative side and i think it was a good punish for his ego. A draw is a draw even if you like it or no.|
|Jul-27-13|| ||Everett: <Occasionally Fischer was undone by his awareness of overwhelming talent>|
No, he was occasionally undone by someone who played better than he did.
|Mar-09-16|| ||nalinw: Wow - what a game. I have not seen it before - probably because it is not one RJF would want to include in "60 Memorable Games" - but it is memorable for us!|
Just look at the Queen on b1 radiating power in two directions - perhaps this was Petrosian in disguise?
|Mar-09-16|| ||The Kings Domain: Nice tribute to Fischer on his birthday: a loss (heh).|
A Fischer game, especially during his prime, is always worth the time.
|Mar-09-16|| ||cunctatorg: Too ado for almost nothing! By nothing I mean the ... discovery that Bobby Fischer wasn't a God... |
RJF wasn't crazy ON the chessboard as many of the commentators seem to (implicitly) imply!... He certainly had a certain psychopathology (at his life outside chess) but he was neither REALLY delirious nor hallucinated... though he had some obsessions or (much accurate...) he was desperately trying to convince everybody (including himself) that he had some obsessions and all... I have in mind his expressed hate towards every Jew and his persecution ideas; however these very "obsessions" weren't strong enough to convince him to refuse the invitation of the father of the (Jewish) Polgar family to visit them and stay at their home; in fact he did visit them and he did stay at the home of the very Polgar family (eating the food they offered him!!) for more that one year!! I point this very fact to the site's MANY would-be psychiatrists ... adding that i) this science is perhaps harder that chess and ii) we aren't likes of Fischer even in chess...
Regarding this very game, it only proves that Bobby Fischer wasn't a God, nothing more. I also think that Florin Gheorghiu played very well but this is for the ... machines to judge and decide.
Fischer's losses to both Boris Spassky (before 1972) and Efim Geller are something else; I guess that Spassky was stronger than Bobby before 1967 but the Geller case is something different; the important thing here isn't that Efim Geller played five times like Gheorghiu did once but the fact that Fischer didn't find a way to truly react all these times; Ok, he won three games but the fact is that he didn't react well five times; this is different from the case of his unique loss to Gheorghiu, here you could guess that Fischer tended either to underestimate or to check out his opponent...
What Garry Kasparov says about the "Geller Problem" at his book about Bobby Fischer?!?
|Mar-09-16|| ||kevin86: A Romanian defeats Fischer...and not on the balance beam.|
|Mar-09-16|| ||TheBish: Fischer got Kmoched!|
|Mar-09-16|| ||dark.horse: hmmm... a Fischer loss as game of the day on the man's birthday. I have a problem with this.|
|Mar-09-16|| ||GiuocoPianoMan: HOW TO BEAR BOBBY FISCHER book by Edmar Mednis. Excellent book that gives every game Bobby lost- before the 1992 rematch anyway. Pays special attention to "The Losing Moment" in each game. Fascinating study. Written in English notation if that is a problem for anyone.|
|Mar-09-16|| ||juan31: Very bad selection of game <CG> , I support the opinion of < dark.horse>|
|Mar-10-16|| ||Party Animal: <cunctatorg: He certainly had a certain psychopathology (at his life outside chess) but he was neither REALLY delirious nor hallucinated... he was desperately trying to convince everybody (including himself) that he had some obsessions and all... I have in mind his expressed hate towards every Jew and his persecution ideas; however these very "obsessions" weren't strong enough to convince him to refuse the invitation of the father of the (Jewish) Polgar family to visit them and stay at their home; in fact he did visit them and he did stay at the home of the very Polgar family (eating the food they offered him!!) for more that one year!!> |
I think in the back of Fischer's tortured mind he knew at an early age that his father wasn't Gerhardt Fischer but Paul Nemenyi who it was proven via The FBI, that Nemenyi sent money to Bobby's mother Regina monthly to support Fischer & sometimes show up at the family's Brooklyn apartment to take Bobby on outings. I think his hatred toward Jews is because of his father complex.
|Mar-10-16|| ||diceman: After 15.g5 Gheorghiu offered a draw, which Fischer refused.|
|Mar-10-16|| ||TheFocus: <Party Animal> Great assessment.|
|Mar-12-16|| ||cunctatorg: I agree that Bobby Fischer should have realized (or had sensed) that Paul Nemenyi was his father (I doubt that he had seen Gerhardt Fischer during his childhood...) because of the aforementioned Paul Nemenyi's visits and all... |
However Regina's caring wasn't enough to cover Bobby's fundamental emotional needs ("Anand should have a better upbringing than I did..."; Fischer's own words to Helgi Olafsson after his meeting with Vishy Anand in Iceland) and Fischer should have felt too much Paul Nemenyi's presence and his absence also... He famously spoke about the importance of a father figure for him and his related need ...
I guess that both Paul Nemenyi and Regina Fischer were dearest to Fischer's heart and simultaneously a source of greatest frustration and intense anger, hate in fact, due to Regina's lack of ability to make Bobby really happy and Paul Nemenyi's rare (and dearest) presence and long absence which had intensified Regina's flaws. Of course these two persons were Bobby Fischer's real (and unique) emotional foundation, therefore he was in need to somehow get rid of this intense hate in order to save his very emotional foundation and his very "ego". It's then easy to guess that Fischer "made use" of a fundamental mechanism of the defense of ego, a mechanism called "displacement": he convinced himself that he didn't hate his beloved parents (who were Jews) but the (other) Jews and (almost!...) everything related to Jews except his parents...
The very acceptance from Fischer's part of the invitation of the father of the Polgar sisters is an evidence that (both consciously and unconsciously!) had realized that his most profound need and desire was to feel part of a normal and happy family, at least to feel the related feelings among them. Therefore this very desire of him should be stronger than the displacement's functions... which -after all- wasn't "universal and absolute": Fischer's "back of the head" permitted him to pay a very human visit to hospitalized Mikhail Tal in Curacao and also to send an encouragement letter to Victor Korchnoi back at 1976 though he had been certainly aware that both Tal and Korchnoi were children of Jewish families... By the way Fischer should have develop gratitude and love feelings towards the Polgar sisters and their family; he only decided to go away when the Polgar sisters received an invitation for a simultaneous exhibition from the U.S. army; Bobby Fischer was fully aware that he had opened issues with his home and he didn't want the Polgar family to get involved at this conflict, so he did his best in order to become obvious that the Polgar family wasn't ... a part of the problem.
I eventually want to point out that during the nineties Bobby Fischer paid (to my knowledge?) two long visits to both Paul Nemenyi's motherland Hungary and to Gerhardt Fischer's motherland Germany!!...
|Mar-14-16|| ||cunctatorg: c2) To be honest, there is something more, one more ... conjecture, in my understanding of Bobby Fischer's situation; around 1960 he had tried to get rid of the aforementioned, very emotional foundation of his (him)!! I mentioned that his relationship with his parents was extremely controversial, he had loved them but they were also a source of serious disappointment, frustration and pain, agony for him... |
Around 1960, he made a statement about a rook-like house, a "personal castle" of his with the shape of a chess rook, that someday some architect would design for Bobby Fischer, ... the greatest chess player (who ever would live) in Earth... This is clear evidence (to me) that he had started to desperately try to get rid to the love for his parents ... for obvious reasons. How? He did try to fall in love with himself, to make use of his skills and achievements in order to convince himself that he wasn't in need of anyone, in fact he was an exceptional individual beyond comparison and therefore he had to love himself!! This is the case of Bobby Fischer's "megalomania" and his (mild!...) paranoia...
In my opinion he tried hard for that and an evidence of his success is the very Fischer-boom, his great influence on his fellow countrymen who though they mostly didn't seriously understand chess, they fell in love with this game because they had fallen in love with Bobby himself!! Fischer then could justify the idea that if so many persons had fallen in love with him, he could of course fall himself in love with nobody else than himself... Therefore he could get rid of his very controversial and extremely painful (but real and solid...) emotional foundation of his...
The peak of this "development" should be the years 1970-1972 and it's almost obvious from his public performances; if my conjecture is true, then -around 1970- he should have minimized contacts with his mother and even his sister. However I wonder when Paul Nemenyi died -or had died- because this very death should be another reason to get rid from his love to his parents, any hope to get close with his father also had died then... Of course Paul Nemenyi had another family and he would have stopped to get involved in the Fischer family life after 1956, when Bobby started to become famous and to can afford himself ... or so...
Anyways, after 1972 Bobby Fischer found himself completely dependent of his very achievements!! If he was successful in his "megalomania", this state of affairs had become the replacement of his very emotional foundation; therefore the possibility of the loss of the complete domination over the game of chess would become a complete (COMPLETE, that is, from any point of view...) failure of "disastrous (emotional and even mental) proportions"!!... Therefore Bobby Fischer stopped to play chess and chose to live in the past glories, he even started to feel in danger from the successes of the next greatest chess players though he knew that he wouldn't ever compete with them; their successes spoiled the image (in his mind) of his very particular superiority and domination...
|Mar-14-16|| ||cunctatorg: c3) Therefore, just after his greatest success at 1972, Beethoven's "Coriolanus o(u)verture" started to be listened... I guess that the main (though not complete) end of his megalomania came with the infamous "Pasadena jailhouse" incident and during the following year. To be honest, Bobby Fischer reacted completely normally all the months after his imprisonment (and emotional torture) at the Pasadena jailhouse and even when he realized that he wasn't so important to and beloved by some ... very influential persons, on the contrary they had enough of his megalomania and absence of activity; however he also reacted normally then, he just chose to write down and speak out the truth in a pamphlet that it seems to me completely rational; that is the reason for my view of his megalomania and paranoia as a mild one... |
Bobby Fischer also chose to ... make amends (among other things of greatest importance for him) during and after the occasion of the 1992 rematch with Boris Spassky; it was necessary for him not to love but at least to respect himself and his self-esteem had suffered during the "Pasadena jailhouse" incident... Of course he way exaggerated during this effort of his (I have in mind his reaction regarding the 9/11 assault etc.) but he was in need to make amends and he had also too much pain and therefore a lot of hate and aggression and all that (even) without the "Pasadena jailhouse"...
There is so a third period in Bobby Fischer's mental life, his efforts to regain his lost self-respect (from 1982 until 1992 or even 2003) and perhaps a fourth period, that is when he realized that he had already achieved the aforementioned purpose when he (was permitted to be) landed in Iceland and his life in Iceland during his final years...
However all that seems to me that it should be obvious -as one "interpretation" or "reconstruction", a conjecture that is- for any student of psychoanalysis and I thus keep wondering about the reason of some so poor movies like "The pawn sacrifice"... It's funny that people creates greatest movies about fictional (and therefore relatively harmless) heroes-and-villains like Hannibal Lecter etc. and -at the same time- are unable to create a serious movie about Bobby Fischer's case which however involves "real and actual" emotional complications of the real people...
Another great case-study in-between chess, real competition and psychoanalysis is the Alekhine-Capablanca relationship which however was extremely (EXTREMELY!!) useful to Bobby Fischer's natural successors, the ... K-K-K ... cabal, who were able and subtle enough to work out, to understand and make use of the corresponding teachings; Paul Morphy's case is "reconstructed" in (the well-known) Ernest Jones essay...
|Mar-14-16|| ||cunctatorg: By the way, as the very ending of his life (and also his overall presence during the last years of his life) suggests, Bobby Fischer's psychopathology wasn't exactly some paranoia but a severe bipolar disorder...|
|Mar-14-16|| ||offramp: Yes. Fischer was bipolar. That's why he moved to Iceland. It's easier to buy polar bears up there.|
|Mar-17-16|| ||cunctatorg: With or without his polar bears, the evidence is that this guy who moved to Iceland in order to buy polar bears, he committed suicide by refusing to have the proper treatment for his lethal (but normally curable) disease... |
People with severe depression (or the severe bipolar disorder, Bobby used to have bursts of anger) tend to commit suicide one way or another ... which for some guys may be a great joke...
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