|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Jul-18-08
 | | keypusher: <RookFile>
<I'm thinking in terms of the whole career. Of course, Botvinnik had impressive results. Maybe he did have a remarkable 3 year run. Over his career though, his results with black don't measure up to Fischer's results with black.> You are mistaken. Here are their career figures with Black. Botvinnik
+265/43.7%
-96 /15.8%
=245/40.4%
Overall percentage with Black: 63.9%
Fischer
+211/47.5%
- 79/17.8%
=154/34.7%
Overall percentage with Black: 64.9%
So, slight advantage to Fischer. He also won (and lost) slightly more often. But this isn't fair to Botvinnik, since he played until he was 59, and Fischer retired at the age of 29. To get a fairer comparison, I measured Botvinnik through his winning of the world title in 1948: +142/52.6%
-37/13.7%
=91/33.7%
Overall percentage with Black: 69.4%
Now he wins more often, and loses less often, than Fischer. He also has a higher overall percentage. |
|
| Jul-18-08 | | RookFile: Well, nice work. I think it's fair to say that they were comparable. That's the main thing. Various points could be raised - for example, Botvinnik was 29 in 1940, so maybe that should be his cutoff date. The scary thing about Fischer is, if he wasn't insane the next 10 years for him after age 29 would have been even stronger than his previous 10. So, when you factor all this in, it's probably best to say that Botvinnik and Fischer were comparable in their ability to win with the black pieces. |
|
| Jul-18-08 | | notyetagm: <keypusher: ... Now let's be honest: Spassky is a despicable, cowardly little pantywaist for not trying to annihilate Larsen 6-0, isn't he?> Indeed.
Glad you agree with me.
|
|
Jul-18-08
| | keypusher: <notyetagm> Let's see how many others are on board. Who else thinks Spassky is a despicable, cowardly little pantywaist for not trying to annihilate Larsen 6-0? And who, on the other hand, believes only a creep who has issues with his masculinity would think that Spassky is a despicable, cowardly little pantywaist for not trying to annihilate Larsen 6-0? |
|
| Jul-18-08 | | Alphastar: <keypusher> I think it is very logical to draw out the rest of the games. The only thing that is important is that the match is won, and when you have a 3-0 lead draws will do just as well as wins. Why take risk when you don't need it? |
|
| Jul-18-08 | | notyetagm: <keypusher: <notyetagm> Let's see how many others are on board.> Must I always place a :-) after my posts to show that I am not serious. Of course drawing out a match is the correct thing to do for 99.9999999% of chess players. I was using the Taimanov and Larsen matches as examples of Fischer's -UNBELIEVABLE- will to win damn near every game he played: he was still playing Siclians and King's Indians though he was way ahead in those matches! Just incredible fighting spirit, will to win, crush the opponent every single game mentality by Fischer. |
|
Jul-18-08
| | keypusher: <notyetagm> OK, fair enough. Sorry for going overboard. |
|
| Jul-21-08 | | notyetagm: <keypusher: <notyetagm> OK, fair enough. Sorry for going overboard.> No problem.
:-)
|
|
| Sep-12-08 | | joelsontang: where can i get notes by fischer apart from his 60 memorable games??? |
|
| Oct-12-10 | | kingfu: Many players believe that you have to get equal before playing for the big 0-1 as black. Fischer's strength was his attitude.
He was playing to win from move one as white or black! |
|
| Jul-04-11 | | Damianx: the stats are warped cause Fisher had maybe what ten years at his best cut short to tidy them up |
|
Jan-17-13
 | | offramp: Could someone let Houdini run wild over this game?
What puzzles me is that Fischer gives white loads of ?s and black loads of !s and then at move 30 says that white should have drawn.I believe the notes are from Chess Meets Of The Century; they give the impression of having been done very quickly. |
|
| Mar-31-15 | | Zugzwangovich: <offramp: I believe the notes are from Chess Meets Of The Century; they give the impression of having been done very quickly.> You are correct; they are from Chess Meets Of The Century. |
|
| Apr-10-16 | | Damianxxx: I read a Fischer interview where he was asked what was the biggest factor in his achievement jump being a bit blase he said when he realized that there is no reason why black shouldn,t play 4 a win it just takes a little longer |
|
| Apr-10-16 | | Howard: If I remember correctly, the late Gligoric states in How to Open A Chess Game, that Fischer often went for a win with Black "right from the start". |
|
May-18-25
 | | FSR: I had not seen this game before. I am currently playing this line as Black in an ICCF game, but my opponent deviated with 11.Qb4 Nc6 12.Qa4?! I have a big advantage, but it's almost impossible to win a correspondence game against an opponent who's using an engine (this is legal in ICCF). We shall see. |
|
| May-18-25 | | Olavi: During the Palma de Mallorca Interzonal Hübner wrote that against Fischer everybody plays like a rabbit. This is a blitz game, but still the opening vindicates that verdict; and in Palma too Smyslov was worse with White against Fischer straight from the opening. |
|
May-18-25
 | | perfidious: <Olavi....in Palma too Smyslov was worse with White against Fischer straight from the opening.> Twice in three weekends in September 1981, Evan Michaelides played the White side of Smyslov's line from Mallorca against me, the only games I ever had with either colour in that innocuous variation. He ground me down in the first game, then I won quickly in the second. |
|
| May-18-25 | | Olavi: <perfidious> Smyslov had a bit of a fix idee about that variation: Smyslov vs Tal, 1964 I wonder if he did well with that Na4 thing in some slightly different circumstances. |
|
| May-19-25 | | ewan14: IIRC Fischer , when playing black , said he wanted to equalise first and then progress from there |
|
May-19-25
| | perfidious: Robert Byrne was analysing a game with Fischer in the late 1960s/early 1970s when Fischer admonished him for trying for too much with Black. Fischer's line went roughly as follows: 'You've got to equalise with the black pieces before trying for something'. |
|
| May-20-25 | | Petrosianic: Fischer did say that, but in the case of the Najdorf he might not have practiced what he preached. Mednis made the case that the Najdorf was, strictly speaking, not exactly in accordance with Fischer's style, but he did so well with it because he knew it so much better than anyone else. |
|
| May-20-25 | | Petrosianic: Mednis' comments on Fischer and the Najdorf:
<Fifty years of analysis and play have shown the objective soundness of the Gruenfeld. Yet it remains the most delicate-to-handle opening for Black and one small inaccuracy is sufficient to transform White's attackable center into a sound, unstoppable, overpowering, roaring lion. Ever since his 1956 "Game of the Century" against Donald Byrne, the Gruenfeld has remained one of Fischer's secondary weapons against the QP. He has not been particularly successful with it, however. Why not? I believe that the Gruenfeld is too wild, unbalanced, almost "obscure" for Bobby's inherently clear strategic style.The reader may well ask: "How about the Najdorf Sicilian, which also is rather obscure? Doesn't Bobby have great results with that?" And the answer is, of course: "Yes." But here is the big difference. The Najdorf is HIS defense to the KP, for many years the sole defense. He has studied it day after day, month after month, year after year. His feel for it and knowledge of it are about as total as practically possible. The Gruenfeld, as only one of his secondary defenses, has got nowhere as much attention. The defense is not particularly suited to his style, requires very delicate handling, and he has not studied it as extensively as some others - thus even Fischer has had some reverses.> I haven't done a check on Fischer's record with the Gruenfeld, or how often he used it, but I only remember him losing three games with it; two to Spassky and one to Petrosian. His record can't be too bad. The Ragozin QGD, that's the one that was jinxed. |
|
May-20-25
 | | Sally Simpson: "... he might not have practiced what he preached." It was Bobby saying; 'Do as I say, not do as I do." Byrne has to equalise as Black before trying anything. Fischer does what Fischer did. Seriously. We do not know what game they were looking at. If it was against a GM then sound advice. |
|
May-21-25
| | perfidious: Here is the record for all Fischer games under D70-D99 (includes Neo-Gruenfeld): https://www.chessgames.com/perl/che... <....The Ragozin QGD, that's the one that was jinxed.> In Fischer's early career, as oft noted by Mednis and Levy, he displayed much stubbornness and came to grief until he improved his openings and abandoned some lines altogether (the insipid variation played in
Fischer vs D Keller, 1959 was merely the best-known and costliest venture of several). |
|
 |
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
Annotations by 