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|Sep-08-07|| ||mccarthpm: fischer didnt crush pertrosian in the 1971 match??????? I thought the score was six wins to one|
|Jun-13-09|| ||kamalakanta: <mccarthpm: fischer didnt crush pertrosian in the 1971 match??????? I thought the score was six wins to one>|
5 to 1
|Dec-25-10|| ||perfidious: <Plang> Spassky's 1973 Soviet title was indeed a signature achievement of his career, as the USSR federation forced all the top players to take part in what was one of the two strongest Soviet championship events ever held.|
<mccarthpm> In the interests of objectivity, the score through five games of the 1971 Fischer-Petrosian match was 1-1 with three draws. In the first game, the former champion sprang an innovation and obtained the better position with Black, then lost his way in the middlegame. The second game was a nice piece of attacking chess by Petrosian (no misprint!) after weak play in the early middlegame by Fischer. Game three saw Petrosian allow a threefold repetition in a better ending, and Fischer obtained little in the fifth game after a quick draw in the fourth.
In game six, Petrosian made an elementary error at his third move with White (1.Nf3 c5 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2) and immediately got a passive position, though he defended strongly and obtained a position difficult to break down, and blew a chance to draw.
The seventh game was a Capablanca-like display of simplicity, as Fischer
played the famous exchange of knight for bad bishop which was incomprehensible to even strong masters, but left Black with a hopeless position. Game eight saw Fischer obtain a middlegame advantage, following some slack play by his opponent, and drove it home. In the finale, Petrosian tried the unusual 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6, but Fischer responded with simple play, gained a small edge, carrying this to an ending, which he eventually converted.
Does all this really add up to a crushing victory for Fischer? I have no axe to grind here-I'm interested only in the truth, or as close as I can get to it, weak player that I am, by the standards of these titans.
|Dec-25-10|| ||ughaibu: Which was the other strongest ever, or the only stronger?|
|Dec-25-10|| ||perfidious: <ughaibu> The 1955 event, the last for Botvinnik, which again had all, or nearly all, top players present and was won by Geller after beating Smyslov (+1 =6) in a playoff.|
|Dec-25-10|| ||keypusher: <perfidious>
You're in for it now. Nothing makes ughaibu angrier than hearing something positive about Geller. Happy/Merry Christmas to both of you anyway.
|Dec-25-10|| ||ughaibu: I'll restrain my ire as a seasonal exception. Thanks Perfidious, though with a name like that, can I believe you. . . ?|
|Dec-25-10|| ||perfidious: <keypusher> Thank you sir and the same to you!|
<ughaibu> Tough call whether to believe me, especially as I used to play poker professionally, and as you well know, we're all pathological liars.
|Dec-25-10|| ||Jim Bartle: "...we're all pathological liars."
That's not true.
|Dec-25-10|| ||perfidious: <Jim Bartle> But it is.............. some of the time.|
|Dec-25-10|| ||Fusilli: <perfidious> But what about the 1988 USSR championship? The lineup was Kasparov, Karpov, Yusupov, Salov, Eingorn, Ivanchuk, Yudasin, Beliavsky, Ehlvest, Smyslov, Gavrikov, Sokolov, Vaganian, Khalifman, Smirin, Gurevich, Malaniuk, Kharitonov. A Category XIV tournament.|
|Dec-26-10|| ||perfidious: <Fusilli> Here are the two lineups.|
1955 event: Geller, Kotov, Smyslov, Korchnoi, Keres, Mikenas, Petrosian, Simagin, Antoshin, Averbakh, Borisenko, Furman, Ilivitsky, Lisitsin, Scherbakov, Spassky, Taimanov, Flohr, Botvinnik and Kan.
1973: Geller, Averkin, Karpov, Korchnoi, Petrosian, Polugaevsky, Smyslov, Spassky, Taimanov, Kuzmin, Tal, Savon, Sveshnikov, Beliavsky, Grigorian, Rashkovsky, Keres and Tukmakov.
The '88 lineup is nasty, but I believe I'd go with the '55 vintage.
|Dec-26-10|| ||Everett: <Fusilli> <perfidious> Well, those aren't bad "top 3"|
Any idea what would be the equivalent US championships?
|Dec-26-10|| ||Fusilli: <Everett> Hmmm... not sure. Since Fischer was so much above everyone else, I would guess one of the round-robins from recent years. All the former-USSR expatriates have dramatically raised the level of US chess competition, in my opinion.|
About past decades, the 1963 championship (Fischer +11 -0 =0) must be up there, with Fischer, Reshevsky, Evans, Benko, R Byrne, D Byrne, Saidy, Weinstein, Bisguier, Addison, Mednis, and Steinmeyer.
|Dec-26-10|| ||Fusilli: <perfidious> Point taken. 1955 was brutal too. On the other hand, which one was most exciting? The 1973 tournament had many draws and few upsets. I am going over games from it, btw. I am using User: suenteus po 147's game collection on it. <suenteus> has wonderful game collections, including (I think) all the USSR championships.|
I haven't taken a close look at the 1955 and 1988 crosstables. Were there too many draws, or few upsets? The 1973 many draws (in my opinion) and few upsets do not reflect the kind of fierce competition that took place. Players were even "encouraged" by the Soviet leadership to avoid draws under 30 moves.
|Dec-26-10|| ||outsider: I would go for 1940:
Keres, Petrov, Botvinnik, Lilienthal, Boleslavsky and many other great names
|Dec-26-10|| ||Benzol: <<suenteus> has wonderful game collections, including (I think) all the USSR championships.>|
<suenteus> and <phony benoni> have together done a brilliant job on the USSR Chs. See
Game Collection: USSR Championship Tournament Index
The 1988 lineup was Kasparov, Karpov, Yusupov, Salov, Eingorn, Ivanchuk, Yudasin, Beliavsky, Ehlvest, Smyslov, Gavrikov, Sokolov, Vaganian, Khalifman, Smirin, Gurevich, Malaniuk and Kharitonov which was quite a formidable group.
The 12th 1940 Ch lead to the 1941 Absolute Ch which was also pretty strong.
|Dec-26-10|| ||Fusilli: <benzol> You are right! Apologies for the omission of PB's own collections!|
|Dec-26-10|| ||AVRO38: <The '88 lineup is nasty, but I believe I'd go with the '55 vintage.>|
I believe the 1973 Championship was the strongest ever. 5 World Champions and 12 USSR Champions competing. Spassky's victory was one of his greatest triumphs.
|Dec-26-10|| ||AnalyzeThis: Petrosian gives a lesson in this game on patience.|
|Dec-27-10|| ||perfidious: <Benzol> Indeed, the authorities couldn't have Botvinnik fail-with his 'only' sharing fifth in 1940-so it was time to arrange for still greater success.|
|Dec-27-10|| ||checkmateyourmove: the battering ram of the e pawn is classic. exposing the king but using it for an offensive sequence is very impressive.|
|Jul-22-12|| ||perfidious: <Fusilli: ....All the former-USSR expatriates have dramatically raised the level of US chess competition, in my opinion.>|
Agreed, though I can name two native-born American GMs who resented all that talent coming over. It was hard enough to take home the bacon for even the GMs when I played against the two of them in the 1980s and 1990s, and all the emigres from Over There made it a lot tougher.
|Aug-05-12|| ||Fusilli: <perfidious: ... Agreed, though I can name two native-born American GMs who resented all that talent coming over.>|
Pretty sure one is Joel Benjamin. He says something about this in his book "American Grandmaster". Is the other one John Fedorowicz?
|Aug-05-12|| ||perfidious: <Fusilli> Patrick Wolff was the other.|
Don't recall the Fed saying much about anything pertaining to chess, really.
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