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|Jul-18-13|| ||SuperPatzer77: < Bartimaeus: Apparently this game is "doctored" by Alekhine. Here is the real version of this game : Alekhine vs O Tenner, 1911. Makes sense as 10. ...Ne5 is a move no decent player should make. How many such "modifications" has Alekhine applied throughout his career while documenting his games ? Maybe a great chessplayer but hardly a gentleman. >|
<Bartimaeus> Take a look at the top of diagram - word "analysis"
|Jul-18-13|| ||agb2002: A rather overworked puzzle but still a quite good calculation exercise.|
White has the bishop pair for a bishop and a knight.
The obvious candidate is 11.Nxe5, forcing 11... Bxd1 12.Bxf7+, with an attack similar to that of Legal, 12... Ke7 (12... Kf8 13.Bxc5+ Qe7 14.Bxe7+ Kxe7 15.Rxd1 wins a piece and two pawns) 13.Bxc5+
A) 13... Kf6 14.0-0+
A.1) 14... Kxe5 16.Rf5#.
A.2) 14... Kg5 15.Be3+
A.2.a) 15... Kh4 16.Rf5 and mate soon due to Bf2+.
A.2.b) 15... Nf4 16.Rxf4 and mate soon (for example 16... g6 17.Rf5+ Kh4 18.Bf2#).
A.3) 14... Bf3 15.Rxf3+ does not improve anything.
A.4) 14... Nf4 15.Rxf4+ Kg5 16.Be3 transposes to A.2.b.
B) 13... Qd6 14.Bxd6+ cxd6 15.Rxd1
B.1) 15... Nf4 16.Nc4 Kxf7 (16... Nxg2+ 17.Kf2 wins a piece and one pawn) 17.Nxd6+ Ke6 18.Nf5 + - [3P].
B.2) 15... Nf6 16.Nc4 is similar to B.1.
B.3) 15... g6 16.Bxg6 wins three pawns at least.
|Jul-18-13|| ||morfishine: 11.Nxe5 wins material no matter how Black plays|
|Jul-18-13|| ||TheaN: Thursday 18 July 2013
Looking clearly as a variation on Legal's mate, white's first move is actually very obvious. Of course, before playing this by heart right away is risky, because now there is no knight on c3 to mate, and the combination as a whole should be sound or the defense for black becomes easy (just find the best and survive).
<11.Nxe5 Bxd1> take note that variating with 11....Qh4+ fails due to 12.g3. Normally this is fatal after 12....Nxg3, but the white queen is still untouched allowing the very simple 13.Qxg4, white not need the Bxf7+ and will simply win three pieces for a rook after 13....Qxg4 14.Nxg4 Nxh1 15.O-O-O, the knight is trapped and this will be very simple for white.
<12.Bxf7+ Ke7> the only way for black to challenge the sac, after Kf8 13.Bxc5+ the interposing of the queen is forced.
<13.Bxc5+ Kf6> as said, now black has the choice of Qd6. 14.Bxd6+ cxd6 15.Rxd1 Nf6. Typically, white is now up a piece but both are in. This is objectively black's best try, but completely hopeless after 16.O-O consilidating the c5 and f7 pawn, bishop for knight and better development. Not a happy foresight for black.
<14.O-O+> partly the point of the combination, white brings in more pieces for free. 14....Kxe5 center traps the black king, 15.Rf5#. Thus, only moving to the king side is left.
<14....Kg5> not forgetting Nf4 right away though, as it clear a square on that same kingside. 15.Rxf4+ Kg5 16.Be3! seems to seal the deal prematurely. The range of devastating doublechecks justify white's choice going for three piecese for the queen after 16.Rf5+ Kh6 (Kh4 Bf2#) 17.Rxd1 with a dominating position.
<15.h4+ Kh6 16.Be3 g5 17.Bxg5+ Qxg5 18.hxg5+ Kxg5 19.Rxd1 > and white is up. A lot. Nice combination.
|Jul-18-13|| ||TheaN: Ah, shuts. Of course after castling, h4 is no longer defended. OTB this is easier to spot, and also 15.Be3+ (as in the Nf4 Rxf4+ variation) is the much better move anyway. Of course I considered it, but I thought the maneuver with h4 was more forcing. White ain't lost after Kxh4 I think, but definitely made it harder.|
After 15.Be3+ Kh4 (Nf4 16.Rxf4! as earlier) 16.Rf5! should decide. There is too many around the black king to justify this king rush.
|Jul-18-13|| ||Bartimaeus: <SuperPatzer77> Mea culpa. Another Alekhine "analysis" Alekhine vs NN, 1915 but this time there's no annotation indicating its an analysis.|
|Jul-18-13|| ||gofer: Its queen sac time. This position is too familiar. The only question is whether the
standard sac followed by Bxf7+ works or not!
<11 Nxe5! ...>
11 ... Bxd1
12 Bxf7+ Kf8/Ke7
13 Bxc5+ Qd6 (Kf6 Rf1+ mating)
14 Bxd6 cxd6
15 Rxd1 dxe5
But black doesn't have to play Bxd1 immediately!
<11 ... Qh4+>
<12 Bf2 Qxf2+>
<13 Kxf2 Bxd1>
<14 Bxf7+ Ke7>
So is this a spoiler? "No". Could it have been? "Probably!"
Its about time for one!
|Jul-18-13|| ||TheaN: <gofer> after Qh4+, g3 works better.|
|Jul-18-13|| ||cyclon: In Today's Puzzle my proposition starts with; 11. Nxe5 Bxd1 ( what else? 11. -Qh4+? then simply 12. Bf2 wins. ) 12. Bxf7+ Ke7 ( problem with 12. -Kf8 is that after 13. Bxc5+ [ 13. O-O?? b6 wins ] -13. -Qd6 14. Bxd6+ cxd6 15. O-O [ White threatens dis.check ] -15. -Nf6 [ or 15. -Ke7 [[ 15. -Nf4 16. Rxf4 dxe5 17. Rf2 wins a piece ]] 16. Raxd1 Nf6 17. Ng6+ and White wins 3rd pawn with nothing for Black ] 16. Raxd1 dxe5 17. Bd5 and most likely White wins more material ) ; so here ( after 12. Bxf7+ Ke7 ) we have EITHER:|
13. Bxc5+ Qd6 14. Bxd6+ cxd6 15. Raxd1 and now either -15. -Nf6 16. Ng6+, or -15. -Nf4 16. g3 the game is practically over. Then, the ( 'audience' - ) line;
( after 11. Nxe5 Bxd1 12. Bxf7+ Ke7 13. Bxc5+ ) 13. -Kf6 14. O-O+ Kg5 ( 15. -Kxe5 16. Rf5X ) 15. Be3+ Nf4 ( 15. -Kh4 16. g3+ Kh3 17. Be6+ Bg4 18. Bxg4X ) and though I didn't see an immediate mate here - maybe there is one - White wins either with 16. Rxf4 ( threat is 17. Rf3+ Kh4 18. Rh3X ) - 16. -g6 ( 16. -Bg4 17. h4+ Kh6 [ 17. -Kxh4 18. Rxg4X ] 18. Rf6X, mate by double-check ) 17. Rf3+ Kh5 18. Rh3+ Qh4 19. Raxd1, or 16. Bxf4+ Kf6 ( 16. -Kh4 17. g3+ mates in two ) 17. Bg3+ Ke7 ( 17. -Kg5 18. h4+ Kh6 19. Bf4+ wins Queen back plus taxes ) 18. Bh4+ Kd6 19. Bxd8 White stays a piece and couple of pawns ahead. Aljechin - King of cufflinks.
|Jul-18-13|| ||mistreaver: Thursday. White to play. Medium. 11?
Ahhh, i have recently had my fun time with this game because it is featured in the excellent book:
Tal's winning combinations. It goes something like:
12 Nxe5! Bxd1
13 Bxf7+ Ke7
14 Bxc5+ Kf6
16 Rf5 mate
16 Be3+ Kg4
and white will soon mate.
I remember that actuall continuation went diferent, maybe with 14 Bg5+ and 15 Nc4+, but i think my line will also suffice.
Time to check and see.
|Jul-18-13|| ||mistreaver: Hmm, ok, i missed that in B - line 16... Kg4 is not possible and 16... Kh4 is forced. Now white mates most efficiently with 17 Rf5!, altough (17 g3!) will also suffice. Beautiful game by the master of attack.|
|Jul-18-13|| ||Domdaniel: 11.Nxe5 is very obvious, leading to mate in some lines and material advantage in others. This theme is so familiar that it's a little unusual to see it here this late in the week -- though I suppose the multiple variations account for that.|
|Jul-18-13|| ||Domdaniel: "Would you put a Tenner on it?"|
|Jul-18-13|| ||patcheck: I probably didnt see the best line because, in the black best defense I saw after 11. Nxe5, white advantage is only of two pawns.|
11. Nxe5 Bxd1 (11.
Qh5+ 12. Bf2 and white won a piece: 12.
Qxf2+ 13. Kxf2 Bxd1 15. Rxd1) 12. Bxf7+
Kf8 13. Bxc5+ Qd6 14. Bxd6+ cxd6 15. Rxd1
dxe5 16. Bxh5 and white won a piece) 16. Nc4 Kxf7 17. Nxd6+ and white has won three pawns and should win easily.
Nf4 16. o-o dxe5 (black could try too 16.
Ne2+) 14. Bb3 (for instance) Ke8 (in order to avoid 15. g3 loosing the knight and seems better than 14.
Ke7) 15. g3 Ne2+ [seems better than 15.
Nh5 (or Ng6) allowing 16. Rf7 and than 15.
Nh3+ 16. Kg2 Ng5 17. h4 and the knight is lost] 16. Kh1 and white is better with two pawns up, for instance : 16.
Nd4 17. Ba4+
Ke7 13. Bxc5+
Kf6 14. o-o+ Kg5 (14.
Kxe5 15. Rf5#) 15. Be3+
Nf4 16. Rxf4+ [better than 16. Bxf4+ Kf6 (16.
Kh4 17. g3+ Kh3 18. Be6+ Bg4 19. Bxg4#)17. Bg3+ Ke7] and black is lost, for instance : 16.
g6 17. Rf5++ Kh4 18. Bf2+ Kg4 19. h3# (17.
Kg4 18. h3+ Kh4 (or g3) 19. Bf2#)
Kh4 16. g3+ Nxg3 (16.
Kh3 17. Be6+ Bg4 18. Bxg4#) 17. hxg3+ Kxg3 (17.
Kh3? 18.Be6+ Kxg3 19. Bf4+ Kh4 20. Kg2 and white wins with the threat 21. Rh1#) 18. Bg4+ Kh4 (18.
Kh3 leads to the line we just saw) 19. Kg2 and black is lost, for instance : 19.
Qg5+ 20. Bxg5 Kxg5 21. Rxd1 and white is two pieces up
Qd6 14. Bxd6+ cxd6 15. Rxd1 Nf4 (15.
dxe5? 16. Bxh5) 16. o-o dxe5 17. Bb3 and White is two pawns up.
Time to check
|Jul-18-13|| ||azax: Made much easier by recognizing the Legal-esque pattern, as <Phony Benoni> points out.|
|Jul-18-13|| ||kevin86: I thought I saw a Legal-type mate coming!|
|Jul-18-13|| ||dfcx: <paycheck...> B2 variation, after 13... Qd6 14. Bxd6+ cxd6 15. Rxd1 Nf4 16 Ng4 wins a piece|
|Jul-18-13|| ||Domdaniel: <Bartimaeus> -- Once White decides on 11.Nxe5, the continuation 11...Bxd1 12.Bxf7+ is almost automatic. There is simply no point in trying to win a Rook with 12.Nxf7 ... if the Queen sac works, it must lead to material advantage or mate -- as it does.|
|Jul-18-13|| ||patcheck: You're right <dfcx>: 11. Nxe5 Bxd1 12. Bxf7+ Ke7 13. Bxc5+ Qd6 14. Bxd6+ exd6 15. Rxd1 Nf4? 16. Ng4 looses a piece for black: 16.... Nxg2+ 17. Kf2 Nh4 18. Bb3 (for instance) and white is a piece and a pawn up.
So, instead, I think black should play 15. ... Nf6 which could be followed by 16. Nc4 and white will be three pawns up but with some activity for black.|
|Jul-18-13|| ||BOSTER: <Domdaniel> <The theme is so familiar that it's a little unusual to see it here this late in the week>.|
You are right. But , sometimes not a performance <Legal's mate, improvisations> attracts a piblic, but <the performer>. And here is A. Alekhine.
Many comments, pages 1-3 are very interesting.
<Bartimaeus> <Maybe a great chessplayer but hardly a gentleman>.
It depends on what do you mean a gentleman.
Some sources indicate that Legal touched his f3 knight and was forced to move it, but you was not forced to make such statement.
|Jul-18-13|| ||TomOhio: I thought this game looked familiar. I played essentially this exact line and finished with the same mate in a local tourney 30 years ago. That was back when KG was unknown to most and playing it actually offered an advantage to White.|
|Jul-18-13|| ||Alex56171: The line 14... Ke5 15. Rf5# I saw. The line 14.... Kg5 15. Be3+ Kh4 16. Rf5 Qd4 17. Bxd4 Ng3 18. hxg3+ Kxg3 19. Bf2# I've been unable to see.|
|Jul-18-13|| ||Patriot: 11.Nxe5 Bxd1 12.Bxf7+
12...Ke7 13.Bxc5+ Kf6 14.O-O+
14...Kg5 15.Be3+ must be winning.
|Jul-19-13|| ||Bartimaeus: <Domdaniel> Of course, if you're saccing the Queen you have to get your money's worth or more. I was just mentioning that if you evaluate lines with 11. Nxe5 you would just check upon Nxf7 to see if it led to something. Winning the rook isn't enough and hence, we have to go with Bxf7+. Just an analysis think out loud.|
|Jul-19-13|| ||Bartimaeus: <BOSTER: It depends on what do you mean a gentleman. Some sources indicate that Legal touched his f3 knight and was forced to move it, but you was not forced to make such statement.> |
I thought that was implicit given the context but let me explain it for your understanding. I consider a gentleman to be a person who's a good human being with a sound moral compass and who has good sportsman's spirit. What i referred to in my posts was with respect to Alekhine's tendency to pass off post-mortems and compositions as actual brilliancies which certainly is unethical. You can read the earlier kibitzes on this very game and on other related pages on this site to get a fuller understanding of the picture. I most certainly was not forced to make such a statement; i made it with full comprehension and clear intent.
You on the other hand need to read posts carefully before pronouncing opinions from high above.
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