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Robert Eugene Byrne vs James Tarjan
USA-ch / Zonal (1975), Oberlin, OH USA, rd 12, Jun-24
Sicilian Defense: Dragon Variation. Yugoslav Attack (B78)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

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sac: 33.Rxe3 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jul-08-08  shutupimthinking: I considered Qh3, and saw the idea of the skewer on the back rank, but for some reason decided it didn't work.

So I went for the same line as <YouRang> and <zenpharaohs>, with Rh7 leading to a won endgame (which I doubtless would have screwed up over the board).

I agree that Tuesday puzzles seem to be getting harder.

Jul-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Sad to say, I had the same blindness as <Shutup> I tend to give up quickly.
Jul-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: For today's Tuesday puzzle solution, White initiates a winning skewer combination with 52. Qh3! (52. Qh1! works equally well as noted by <RandomVisitor>).

After 52. Qh3! Kxf7 53. Qh7+ Ke8 54. Qg8+
Kd7 55. Qxb8 , White (as noted by <dzechiel>) has a clearly decisive material advantage.

Jul-08-08  Samagonka: Can't believe I failed to see the trap. And it's only Tuesday! Too bad.
Jul-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Marmot PFL: 52.Qh3 threatening mate on the h file, and winning the queen if the rook is taken. Not very hard, but could be missed in a game (although white with an extra pawn and safer king position shold win anyway).
Jul-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: Tuesday (Easy): White to play and win.

Material: P up. White has a battery Qf3 and Rf7 on the f-file threatening the Black Kg8, which has 1 legal move. If the heavy pieces were off the board, White would have a won endgame. In addition to the usual midgame tactics, therefore, White can win by generating threats that force the exchange of the heavy pieces.

Candidates (52.): Qh3

52.Qh3 [or Qh1] (threatening 53.Qh7#)

Except for throwing furniture (52Qxb2+ 53Rd2+), Black has 1 move:

52...Kxf7 53.Qh7+ Ke8 [or Kf8] 54.Qh8+

White picks up Qb8, with an easily won Q vs. R endgame.

Jul-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: <<An Englishman> wrote: Good Evening: Got this one, but does anyone else think that CG is no longer giving us super-easy puzzles on Monday and Tuesday?

Oh, well, so we have to work a little harder. Let's take this as a compliment.>

Hi, <An Englishman>. The same thought occurred to me a couple of times last week. I couldn't understand why, however, every time I had the thought, I would hum "Look for the Silver Lining".

Jul-08-08  234: Monday puzzle Jul-07-08 <78. ?> I Khamrakulova vs E Ubiennykh, 2001
Jul-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  zenpharaohs: YouRang: "I found the same 52.Rh7 idea as <zenpharaohs>, which yields a slower, but still winning K+P endgame.

However, I expected that black, rather than go down a couple pawns, would play as follows: 52.Rh7 Kxh7 53.Qf7+ Kh8 54.Qxe6 <Qg8>, forcing a queen exchange,"

I agree with your line but not Qg8, according to Rybka: queen exchange comes after the pawns exchange:

54 ... Qb5
55 Qxg6 Qd5+
56 Ka1 e6
57 Qf6+ Kg8
58 Qf1 Qxg5
59 Qxa6 e5
60 a4 Qf4
61 Qc8+ Kf7
62 Qc7+ Kg6
63 c4 Kg5
64 a5 e4
65 Qc5+ Qf5
66 Qxf5+ Kxf5

now the pawns race to promote

67 a6 e3
68 a7 e2
69 a8Q e1Q+
70 Ka2


click for larger view

The 54 ... Qg8 55 Qxg8 Kxg8 position is valued at (+7.30++) by Rybka at 23 ply, wheras the 54 ... Qb5 position is valued at (+2.63--) at 16 ply. Yes, black is lost either way, but white has to do more work from 54 ... Qb5.

And the same can be said about our line 52 Rh7; it is winning, but it is a lot slower to win than the game line.

Jul-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: <<234> wrote: Monday puzzle Jul-07-08 <78. ?> I Khamrakulova vs E Ubiennykh, 2001>

Hi, <234> a.k.a. <012>. Thanks for your service, which is permitting me to pick up the pieces (get it?) from my 2-week vacation.

Jul-08-08  Jason Frost: Wasn't there a nearly identical puzzle like a month ago? Looks simular.
Jul-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: I was looking for a big move. I didn't see any rook sac working and about any move of the queen was either passive or abandoned the rook.

32 ♕h3 looked good-it threatened mate and attacked the rook-but it left the white rook unguarded. It looked hopeless,until I saw the location of the black queen-and its vunerability to an eighth row skewer. So,32 ♕h3 IS the move after all- 32...♔xf7 33 ♕h7+ ♔e8 34 ♕g8+ ♔d7 35 ♕xb8-kismet!

Jul-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <zenpharaohs> You're probably right that black would not be anxious to exchange queens, assuming that he can calculate as well as I can that he would then be left with a lost K+P endgame.

After 54.Qxe6, our Q is nicely attacking all of black's pawns, and it isn't clear (to me) what black's best option (other than ...Qg8) would be.

You've proposed 54...Qb5, which is probably as good as any, although there are other directions that could go.

For instance, instead of 55.Qxg6, white might opt for 55.c4, and then (I presume) 55...Qxg5 56.Qxa5, and now white has (1) 3 connected passers, (2) any pawn can promote *with check*, (3) a safer king (less prone to checks from opposing queen), and (4) white is the one who benefits from a queen exchange. All this should make it winning handily for white.

Jul-08-08  MiCrooks: It always surprises me the amount of discussion that goes on here about third and fourth best moves, and whether you could win from that position of not.

Just take a deep breath and admit to yourselves if you didn't find the best move you didn't solve the puzzle!

Sure, sometimes there are three or four ways to skin the cat and the difference between -14 and -12 is insignificant, but winning the Q for the R is clearly the best move in this position - end of discussion.

Jul-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  DarthStapler: Got it
Jul-08-08  Suji: I somewhat agree with <MiCrooks>, however, if you solved the puzzle with the third or fourth best move and that move still wins, I think you solved the puzzle.

I was looking at 52. Rf8+, 52. Rg7+, and 52. Rh7 before I found 52. Qh3!

I probably wouldn't have found this OTB, and knowing that it was a puzzle definitely helped.

Anyway, the people that chose 52. Rh7 still can claim they solved the puzzle, since they've proven that it leads to a win. Which move is better then, 52. Qh3! or 52. Rh7! ? It is a matter of opinion and if Rh7 fits your style and you end up winning the game because of it, then who can say you didn't play correctly. All they can say is that you missed an "easier" shot. That's my two cents.

Jul-08-08  MiCrooks: Ah, but you are assuming that the point of the puzzle is to win the game! The point of the puzzle is to solve the puzzle by finding the right move.

If the patzers think that they could win the Q and pawn endgame against Kasparov without the aid of their computer then perhaps I could concede the point. But I would be willing to lay money that that wouldn't be the case.

As I mentioned before, if the distinction is between -14 and -12 who cares. But when it is between -6 and -2 that is a much bigger difference.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the discussions of alternative solutions, when there are alternative solutions. This was just not one of those days!

Jul-08-08  MiCrooks: For example, if you came up with Qh1 instead of Qh3 you get full credit :)! The threat on the rook is not real...under no circumstances would taking the rook ever be the best move! If the Black does not play Kxf7 you would play Qh7++ instead. So Qh1 leads to exactly the same line as Qh3 thus both are legitimate solutions.
Jul-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  alphee: Got this one but it took me some time choosing between ♕h3 and ♖h7. Reading the posting I see I'm not the only one. Over the board I would have played Qh3 that was my first idea. Not sure I would have applied the rule "when you have a good move try to find a better one" as if Black played ♔xf7, getting the queen would have been good enough for me.
Jul-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  OBIT: I've heard these debates before: many chessplayers will say that a win is a win, and as long as you make a move that retains the win, there is nothing really wrong with the move. I have to take issue with this thinking. While the move may make no difference to a computer with an endgame database, we humans with our often unreliable brains have a habit of occasionally botching a winning advantage. So, l don't think it makes sense to say a given position is won, lost, or drawn. I think it is better to give the position a fuzzy evaluation, such as "the position is 70% won". (Now, how we decide on that percentage can be subjective as well, but that's just another example of how unreliable our brains can be.)

In today's problem, I'd consider 52. Qh3 or 52. Qh1 to be the only correct moves, since they lead to the position that is the easiest to win. The move 52. Rh7 also wins, but it clearly produces an endgame that is harder to play. Obviously, the harder the position is to play, the easier it is to MISplay, and the fact that the position may be theoretically won is beside the point. As that great philosopher Yogi Berra said once, "In theory, theory and practice are the same thing. In practice, they aren't."

Jul-08-08  Longbrow: <RandomVisitor> wrote: 32...Nxb2!? 33.Rxb2 Bxc3> Good line.
Jul-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <Ideas about "solving" the puzzle> I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but I really don't care if other people think I've "solved it" or not. I can't imagine why anyone WOULD care about that.

The point is that there are varying degrees of satisfaction that one might get from a puzzle. Finding a very clever move that wins quickly is generally more satisfying than finding a move that wins slowly. But finding a move that wins slowly is much more satisfying than finding nothing.

Deriving satisfaction from a puzzle is purely subjective, which is why it's pointless for one person to worry about giving another person "credit" for solving it. Who's keeping score anyway? :-)

<OBIT><While the move may make no difference to a computer with an endgame database, we humans with our often unreliable brains have a habit of occasionally botching a winning advantage. So, l don't think it makes sense to say a given position is won, lost, or drawn. I think it is better to give the position a fuzzy evaluation, such as "the position is 70% won". (Now, how we decide on that percentage can be subjective as well, but that's just another example of how unreliable our brains can be.) >

I think of it a bit differently: Anyone familiar with a tablebase knows that a given position has a status that, in fact, either 100% won, 100% lost, or 100% drawn. One can only lower the status (from win to draw/loss or from draw to loss) by making an inferior move.

In this game, the given position on white's 52nd move is just as 100% won as it would be after 52.Qh3 Kxf7 53.Qh7+ Kf8 54.Qh8+ Kf7 55.Qxb8. The only difference is a matter of clarity, and clarity is something that occurs in the mind of the player -- it is independent of the position's status of being won, lost or drawn. The initial lack of clarity is what makes it a puzzle.

With this in mind, I (for my own purposes) consider a problem solved if I can arrive at a position where my sense of clarity convinces me that I can reach the optimum goal (i.e. win or draw, whichever is the best possible outcome of the position). It may or may not be the most satisfying solution (and in some complex positions, the most satisfying solution may be unknown).

I use this definition of "solving the puzzle" because it can be applied to all puzzles, and doesn't depend on some vague definition of "best move".

However, if someone out there wants to put a "frown" sticker next to my name for not getting today's puzzle, they may. I'll be sure not to care. :-)

Jul-08-08  PinnedPiece: < YouRang: <Ideas about "solving" the puzzle> I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but I really don't care if other people think I've "solved it" or not. I can't imagine why anyone WOULD care about that. >

Yeah, but lots of people post their results hoping others care.

I have found the "Guess the Move" as thoroughly satisfying as the daily puzzles, and you get to do this through an entire game.

The puzzles are lots of fun because of the Aha! you get if you see it, or the Oh, Wow, you get when you are shown it.

Thanks to CG.com for sponsoring the Chess Quiz and making it possible for hangers-on like me to enjoy premiumship for a while. Unfortunately for newbies, I don't see this link available on the home page anymore.

Jul-08-08  PinnedPiece: I must say the "easy" ranking here for puzzles isn't on par with the "easy" ranking for puzzles here:

http://www.shredderchess.com/daily-...

...nor are the hard equivalent!

CG.COM ups the ante all around!

Jul-08-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  mkrk17: Actually, its nice to see the CG.com has upped the ante. The puzzles were getting kind of too easy (especially the mon, tue and wed) and i almost stopped visiting this site on those days.

Pls dont get me wrong, i am not a GM, nor am i anywhere near to being a GM. But giving silly puzzles for all to solve is not serving the purpose (for chess players to improve their tactics). On the other hand, i found the chesscafe.com, which used to give 3 good puzzles everyday ( 2 ok ones, and 1 superhard one), has come down 2 levels and now all 3 puzzles are as easy as a cake.

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