| Jun-05-06 | | ganstaman: What if 56...Rxc5? After trading rooks, white is forced to use a his knight to try to remove black's extra pawn. I don't know if it works, but I don't like leaving my opponent with a rook in this type of endgame. As the game's end shows, the rook can get annoying and help force a draw. A knight on the other hand doesn't offer those same chances, or so I believe at least. |
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| Jun-05-06 | | Fezzik: 27.Rxf7? is cute, but doesn't quite work.
There are several reasons, but the main line goes like this: 27.Rf7? Kxf7! 28.Rxe4 Rxe4 29.Nd6 Ke7 30.Ne4 d3! and Black will be at least a pawn up in the endgame after picking off the b2 and d5 pawns. |
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| Jun-05-06 | | Fezzik: Ganstaman,
That's a great question! My guess, and it's only a guess, is that the position is drawn with Knights on the board. If it isn't a forced win, then Black did the right thing in not trading rooks. By the way, if Black were to work out that trading rooks wins, then he has the definite advantage of being able to trade rooks in some future position. Black's king will advance almost by force and Black will continue to harrass White for hours! |
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| Jun-05-06 | | Fezzik: In the R+ f+h pawns vs R ending, Black might have been able to gain a move on the variation played. 78...Kh4 instead of 78...Rg4 might have gained a critical tempo. Here are two lines: 78...Kh4 79.Rh2? Rg3+ wins. For instance: 80.Kf2 Rg2+ 81.Rxg2 hxg2 82.Kxg2 Kg4! or 80.Kf4 Rg2 81.Rh1 Rf2+ drives the king away and Black should win again. 79.Rd5 (79.Rd4+ Rg4 gives Black the extra tempo I was talking about.) h2. So White has to keep his rook on the second rank and not move his king. Hmmm. |
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| Jun-05-06 | | Fezzik: One more thing... 91...Rd2 has to be a mistake. If Black had played 91...Ra2, then he might have been able to force a win. Does anyone have an endgame database that proves this one way or another? |
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Jun-05-06
 | | al wazir: This just has to be winnable.
How about 84...Rg3 ? If the white ♖ leaves the second rank, then 85...Ra2+ followed by 86...f3. Black's ♔ can hide from the white ♖'s checks on f1. If 85. Rf2 then 85...f3. If the ♖ moves to another square on the second rank (c2, d2, e2) or the ♔ moves, then 85...Kh4, followed by f3 or Rg4, depending on whether or not the white ♖ leaves the rank or attacks the ♙. |
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| Jun-05-06 | | lentil: pretty obscure pun though! very deep. |
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Jun-05-06
 | | offramp: <lentil: pretty obscure pun though! very deep.> I didn't think it was too obscure. Dustin Hoffman was The Marathon Man, and this is a marathon game, and black was played by Hoffman. I think that covers everything. |
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| Jun-05-06 | | Swapmeet: <Fezzik> Black has nothing that wins on move 91. After the h-pawn is lost the game is just a book draw. |
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| Jun-05-06 | | aginis: <al wazir> i had a similar idea with 85...Re4! A. 86.Ra8 Re2+ 87.Kg1 (87.Kh1 Kg3 88.Rg8+ Kf2 89.Rf8 f3 90.Rf7 Ke3 91.Rf8 f2 92.Rf7 Kd2 93.Rf8 Ke1 94.Rf7 Re3! [f1=Q RxQ KxR stalemate]) any f1=Q  )
87...Kg3 88.Rg8+ Kf3 89.Rf8! Rg2+!! 90.Kf1 (Kh1 Rg7 ) Rg7 91.Rh8 Kg3 92.Kg1 (otherwise h2) f3 93.Rh6 (any other move also loses) f3 94.Kf1 h2 95.Rh8 h1=Q+! 96.Rxh1 Re7 B. 86.Rb2 f3 87.Rb8 Re2+ 88.Kh1 (Kg1 f2+ Kf1 h2 ) 88...Kg3 89.Rg8+ Kf2 90.Rf8 Ke3 91.Re8+ Kd2 92.Rf8 f2 93.Rd8+ Ke1 94.Rf8 Re3! -> 95.f1=Q |
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| Jun-05-06 | | aginis: <al wazir> 84...Rg3 85.Kh1 |
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| Jun-05-06 | | EmperorAtahualpa: Good fight! And admirable willpower on White's part. If I were in White's shoes, I probably would have resigned already. |
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| Jun-05-06 | | aginis: <fezzik> 78...Kh4 79.Rd4+ Rg4 80.Rd8 is a draw because black can't get his king back into play i believe. |
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| Jun-05-06 | | cyclemath: What happens if Black plays 75... h2? |
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| Jun-05-06 | | dakgootje: If i would play this as black, during the analysis i would look and look and look where a missed the win... Was there really a convincing win after move ~75? |
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| Jun-05-06 | | pawn to QB4: 75...h2 looks good enough to me, cyclemath. IMHO White's last chance is 76.Rd5+ and all Black has to know is to stop the checks not by going to the f or h files, of course, but also not by 76...f5 77.Rd1 Rg1 78.Rxg1 Rxg1 79.Kxg1 drawn. Instead 76...Kg6 77.Rd6+ f6 e.g. 78.Rd1 Rg1 79.Rxg1 Rxg1 80.Kxg1 Kf5 81.Kf2 Kf4 etc. is an easy win. |
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Jun-05-06
| | al wazir: <aginis: 84...Rg3 85.Kh1> 85...Kh4, as stated above. Then A) 86. Rf2 f3.
B) 86. Rb3 Rg2.
C) 86. Rb4 Kg4 87. Rb2 f3.
D) 86. Kh2 f3 87. Rb4+ Rg4.
Black tries to post his ♙s on f3 and h3 with his ♔ in between on g3. Depending on what white does the black ♖ is on either g4 or on g2, with the white ♔ locked in the corner. Once this is achieved white is either forced to swap (or lose) his ♖ or allow one of the ♙s to advance. |
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| Jun-05-06 | | cyclemath: <75...h2 looks good enough to me, cyclemath.> Yes <pawn to QB4>, I think after 75...h2 Black promotes one of the pawns in all variations. |
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| Jun-05-06 | | kevin86: I read a long time ago that a rook plus two pawns vs a rook is almost always won UNLESS the pawns are RP and BP. The explanation was this: One pawn must be sacrificed to divert the king-however,a lone bishop pawn cannot win because of the vast open space between the king and pawn and the harassing rook on the a-file. The king has no place to hide and the rook must be used to cut off the opposing king. Thus-RP + BP is a draw. |
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| Jun-05-06 | | ganstaman: <kevin86> Which is exactly why I want to get rid of the rooks on move 56. Though this leaves white with a rook pawn as well. And the two knights are on the board. But still, the rook is too powerful to be allowed to stay on the board. |
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| Jun-05-06 | | YouRang: According to the tablebase, Black had a winnable game after 87. Rb4 (diagram:black to move):
click for larger view
But black let it slip away for good with 87...Re4? (he needed 87. Kg4!) A few moves earlier, after 80. Rh2, we had this position (diagram:black to move):
click for larger view
Black missed the best reply:
80...f4!
This is practically a zugzwang for White: he must surrender space to the black king or to the black h-pawn. After this, Black wins in a fairly straightforward manner. |
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| Jun-05-06 | | LluviaSean: A great bit of defence from both players!!! |
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Kibitzing
