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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing > |
| Jan-30-06 |
| Phi: <SickedChess> I think Qe3 is necessary to support Bd3.
After Qe5 I would try 13...0-0 for Black. |
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| Jan-30-06 |
| SickedChess: <Phi> lol i missed that black could 0-0 :) |
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| Jan-30-06 |
| jhoro: i still don't see the win for white.
13...Nc6 14.Bd4 Qb2 15.Nd5 (or O-O) Rb8
if dxe7, d6 followed by Be6 should be good for black. if not e6 is an option. also to Nd5 black can play Qd4. the black king is not comfortable by any means but can survive imo |
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| Jan-30-06 |
| jhoro: can someone with Fritz or Shreder take a look at the final position? |
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| Jan-30-06 |
| Fan of Leko: Short is right - players that resign early are just feeling sorry for themselves. |
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| Jan-30-06 |
| square dance: <jhoro> i posted a reply about this game on the tournament page as well. i was looking at this game with fritz 9 and the sequence i recall is 13...Nc6 14.Bd3 Qb2 15.0-0 e6 16.Nd5 Rb8 17.Nbc3 and black is getting a good rogering. ;-) although im not 100% about the move order. i'll check it out with fritz again. be back soon. |
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| Jan-30-06 |
| Chicago Chess Man: <Phi>: not 13. ... 0-0? because of 14. Bd3 Qb2 15. Qg5+! Kh8 16. Qf5! and I believe mate is forced. |
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Jan-30-06
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| crafty: 13. ...  c6 14.  d3  b2 15. O-O e6 16. b5  f8  (eval 1.11; depth 15 ply; 1500M nodes) |
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| Jan-30-06 |
| jhoro: thanks <square dance>. i used crafty for a bit and 15...Rb8 seemed ok. when i just let it run for 4+ min and it came up with 16.Qg5 for this line and +2.80 for white. i wonder if Shirov calculated that deep!? plus Wells might've not made the best moves (as was the case with him against Akopian today) |
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| Jan-30-06 |
| Chicago Chess Man: Actually, in the above continuation mate is not quite forced. A better continuation would be 16. 0-0, preventing the black from giving check on c1... In any case 13 ... 0-0 14. Bd3 would give white powerful attacking prospects on an already weakened king. |
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| Jan-30-06 |
| square dance: <ccm> 13...0-0, as suggested by <phi>, was in response to 13.Qe5 suggested by <sickedchess>. |
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| Jan-30-06 |
| Chicago Chess Man: My fault, Phi. I've played chess seriously now for about six months, so I'm still a patzer. I just got excited thinking I had some great insight. |
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| Jan-30-06 |
| square dance: this is some fritz analysis after from the final position. 13...e6 transposes into the same idea. Analysis by Fritz 9:
1.  (2.53): 1...Nb8-c6 2.Bf1-d3 Qc2-b2 3.0-0 e7-e6 4.Rf1-e1 Nc6-d4 5.Nc3-d5 f7-f5 6.Nd5-c7+ Ke8-f7 here is some further analysis after 15...e6. you can see that white has many happy choices in this position. 
click for larger viewAnalysis by Fritz 9:
1. (3.94): 4.Qe3-h6 b7-b6 5.Nc3-d5 Bc8-b7 6.Nd5-f6+ Ke8-d8 7.Qh6-g7 Kd8-c8 8.Qg7xh8+ Nc6-d8 9.Rf1-d1 a7-a6 10.Nb1-d2 2. (2.98): 4.f2-f3 b7-b6 5.Rf1-f2 Qb2-a1 6.a2-a3 Bc8-b7 7.Rf2-a2 Qa1xa2 8.Nc3xa2 0-0-0 9.Bd3-e4 f7-f5 10.Be4xc6 Bb7xc6 11.Na2-c3 3. (2.86): 4.Rf1-e1 b7-b6 5.Re1-e2 Qb2-a1 6.a2-a3 Bc8-b7 7.Re2-a2 Qa1xa2 8.Nc3xa2 0-0-0 9.Bd3-e4 f7-f5 10.Be4xc6 Bb7xc6 11.Na2-c3 4. (2.82): 4.Qe3-g5 Ke8-f8 5.Qg5-h6+ Kf8-g8 6.f2-f4 Nc6-d4 7.f4-f5 e6xf5 8.Rf1-f2 5. (2.81): 4.Nc3-b5 Qb2-e5 5.Qe3-h6 f7-f5 6.Nb5-c7+ Ke8-f7 7.Nc7xa8 Qe5-g7 8.Qh6-h3 Rh8-f8 9.Na8-c7 depth=14/14 kN/s 237
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| Jan-30-06 |
| Phi: <jhoro> let's look at your suggested line: 13...Nc6 14.Bd4 Qb2 15.O-O I think the problem is that white's plan is to play Qg3(or Qg5) with the threat of Qg7...black can only play Rf8, but then comes dxe7 attacking the rook. If Nxe7 Re1 wins easily (in some lines with the help of Nb5-c7+). So black is forced to play 15...e6, but now Qh6! is white's answer (the idea is not to allow Kf8). There are now several threats: Nb5, Nd5 and Qg7. Fritz suggests 15...e6 16.Qh6 b6 17.Nd5 f5 18.Nbc3 (blocking the a1-h8 diagonal) exd5 19.Re1+ Kf7 20.Be2 and it's over. Note that there are probably other lines and ideas to win, that was just my approach to the position. |
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| Jan-30-06 |
| jhoro: <square dance>, <Phy>: thank you for the analysis. it does appear all roads lead to Rome, but the position seemed fairly complex to give up that early. just looking at the diagram from SD i can see that the white queen is trapped and there is no safe place for the king, but i thought Shirov could've tried for few more moves. Wells is/was 200 elo pts bellow him after all. |
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| Jan-30-06 |
| Phoenix: I believe Shirov also was nearly out of time towards the end. I saw the game at move 12, and I remember he had 17 minutes left on his clock. |
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| Jan-30-06 |
| RisingChamp: I am sorry but there is something seriously wrog with Alexei Shirov first 0.5 out of 8 with a performance of 2139, and then a 13 move loss?? Firstly when you are rated 2709 you are supposed to be in your opening preparation at this stage. Secondly even otherwise I am currently playing my state championships and I can assure you that there are few people on board 20 and above who would lose like this. Even if i am not a great player like Shirov i will always think abt taking a rook like that when a GM is offering it |
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| Jan-31-06 |
| mack: Oh deeeear. |
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Jan-31-06
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| MUG: This game reminds me of
J M Hodgson vs Van der Wiel, 1994
Which features as the first game in Neil McDonalds book 'Modern Chess Miniatures'. Wouldn't surprise me if Wells was well aware of this game. |
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| Feb-02-06 |
| IMJP: At http://www.jovanpetronic.com/forum/...
a member is asking for some analysis.
Which analysis from here can I send him, that are not subject to copyright? Thanks. |
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| Feb-02-06 |
| IMJP: Bundesliga 2005/2006, Germany, 28.01.2006
GM Christian Gabriel (2531) - GM Robert Huebner (2636) 1-0, [D23]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Qb3 dxc4 5.Qxc4 Bf5 6.g3 e6 7.Bg2 Be7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Qb3 Qb6 10.Nbd2 Rd8 11.Nc4 Qxb3 12.axb3 Rd5 1-0Shirov is old news now. |
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| Feb-02-06 |
| IMJP: Shirov played better last year:
P Wells vs Shirov, 2005 |
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Apr-23-06
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| mathematician: Can someone tell me what happens when black plays 12...exd6? and how does white win with 13.Qe3? I think black is fine after 13.Nc6 |
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Apr-23-06
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| tamar: <mathematician> 12...exd6 13 Bd3 
click for larger view While White can castle next move, how does Black develop his queenside and protect his King? |
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| Apr-14-09 |
| dumbgai: Now Wells might not be rated over 2700, but you'd think someone with Shirov's experience would know to think twice when a GM offers a rook like this in the opening. |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing > |
sac: 10.Ne2