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Ferenc Berkes vs Martin Neubauer
European Team Chess Championships (2007)  ·  Gruenfeld Defense: Russian. Hungarian Variation (D97)  ·  1-0
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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-21-17  BOSTER: Certainly that <Once> and <Fusilli> are right. But the winning only one pawn is not the <Puzzle> according <CG> criterion.
Mar-21-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  lost in space: shredder has with d=25

A: 26. Nxb5 Kg7 27. Bxd5 Rae8 28. Nd6 R8e7 + 5,96

B: 26. h3 g4 27. hxg4 fxg4 28. Bxg4 Re4 29. Nb3 +5,6

C: 26. c6 g4 27. c7 Rc8 28. Rc6 Qe7 29. Be2 Rxc7 30. Bf1 Rxc6 31. Nxc6 Qe8 32. Nxe5 Qxe5 +4,0

I havenít seen the last line completely but 26. c6 would have been my move OTB

Mar-21-17  saturn2: Computers are made by humans. If a computer says h3 is almost equal to Nxb5 tben why not assume the guy making the machine made a mistakes?
Mar-21-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <YouRang: So, if some fellow thought the solution was <26.h3> in a forest, but no human was around to evaluate it, would he be wrong?>

I suppose it depends whether we want to work out the absolutely "best" move or the best move to play in a game.

OTB I'd play 26. Nxb5 because I can understand it. It wins at least one pawn.

26. h3 might be a computer's choice, but it's no earthly use to us if we don't know how to win from there.

Mar-21-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: Good Neubauers!
Mar-21-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  ajk68: I'm with <Once>. I looked at h3 as a decent move, but the number of possibilities from there is too great. My computational skills have not gotten to 31 ply with this many pieces on the board. I would be curious what move Carlsen would choose!

I opted for Nxb5 as it has a clear positional and material advantage.

Mar-21-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <Once><26. h3 might be a computer's choice, but it's no earthly use to us if we don't know how to win from there.>

True, but this problem seems to feature a bunch of moves where we can figure out how to win, and 26.Nxb5 and 26.h3 (and even my lowly 26.Nb3) are among them.

That's why this problem struck me as "weird". It's more of a "white to play and not blow the win".

Mar-21-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Fusilli: <YouRang> <That's why this problem struck me as "weird">

It was at least unexciting. With so many relatively simple combos to choose from for a Tuesday puzzle!

Mar-21-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Lambda: <So, if some fellow thought the solution was <26.h3> in a forest, but no human was around to evaluate it, would he be wrong?>

I think it would depend on whether they could convincingly explain why.

Mar-21-17  morfishine: If one eval gives +4 while 9 other evals give +3, then there are 10 solutions to this position, each yielding a decisive advantage

All win, some faster, some slower, one faster than all

*****

Mar-21-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Abdel Irada: ∞

It is not uncommon for there to be many "solutions" to a puzzle if we define a solution as a move that wins (or, in a few cases, a move that saves the game). Therefore, any answer meeting this criteria is "right."

That said, I would argue that the idea in a puzzle is to find the *best* move. And that would be the best move one can find in "human mode," not something perceived by an engine rated well over 3000 at 31 ply.

On that basis, there is only one "best" move here, and it is 26. Nxb5, a move whose point we can all easily perceive: It wins material.

Mar-21-17  morfishine: <Abdel Irada> All that goes without saying, especially if one is trained to find a winning line, and a that point, follow it to its conclusion. Only later, will one discover he could've won earlier, but it doesn't matter since he found a winning line, albeit slower, anyways

In other words, if one is onto a winning line, and calculates it to victory, there is no point in wasting valuable time and energy in looking at other lines: he already know he has a won position

So, whats your point?

*****

Mar-21-17  Willber G: <Abdel Irada: <this criteria is>>

Abdel, I admire your linguistic skills but this disappoints me. ;-)

Mar-21-17  Eduardo Leon: Guys, if you didn't find 26.♘xb5, you didn't find the solution. The point isn't winning the b5 pawn. The point is that, after 26.♘xb5 ♖d8 27.♘d6, black loses either the d5 pawn (which is passed) or the g5 pawn (which could have been annoying in lines with ...g4) and has no more counterplay.
Mar-21-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Abdel Irada: ∞

<Willber G: <Abdel Irada: <this criteria is>>

Abdel, I admire your linguistic skills but this disappoints me. ;-)>

Oops. When I rewrote that sentence, I apparently forgot to change to the singular.

(Note to self: Drink coffee first, *then* post.)

Mar-21-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  PawnSac: cheapo, once, YouRang, Al, and several others..

chess logic...

If the knight was not in the way, Bxd5 would immediately win the exchange. SO, we look at every possible knight move and ask... Which moves are FORCING? (The idea is to get the knight out of the way without allowing black time to add defense to d5.)

Ne6 and Nc6 are obviously lemons as Qx adds additional guard to d5 as well as drop the piece.
Nc2 and Ne2 are not forcing, as black has time to play Rad8. In the case of Ne2 the bishop retreat is blocked and black now threatens ..g4 after he plays ..Rad8.
So that leaves Nxf5 and Nxb5. Nxf5 only works if Rxf5, but Qxf5 defends. That means if Nxb5 does not work, white must look for a 2nd best idea like YouRang's Nb3. But the fact is Nxb5 works.

Therefor... the line goes like this:

Nxb5 Rd8 Nd6 d4 (the pawn can not be taken here.. Re1+ is a discovered attack on white"s queen.) but white may still pick up the pawn eventually, so black can consider other alternatives, like... Nxb5 Kf8 Bxd5 Rae8 or Nxb5 Rae8 Bxd5+ Kf8 and so forth.

anyway, the bottom line is Nxb5 wins at least 1, but probably 2 pawns, while leaving white with a passer that can be protected or advancced. An obviously winning advantage

Mar-21-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <Willber G: <Abdel Irada: <this criteria is>>>

Long and short of it is that most would overlook this, the singular being incorrectly used in place of the plural almost as a matter of course amongst even the otherwise well educated.

Mar-22-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Fusilli: <perfidious: ... as a matter of course amongst even the otherwise well educated.>

Oh, no, <perfidious>, you are in the "amongst" camp...

http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_...

Please don't tell me that you also prefer "utilize" over the simpler "use"...

Mar-22-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <Fusilli....Please don't tell me that you also prefer "utilize" over the simpler "use"...>

No: 'utilise' over 'utilize', though I often employ 'use' as well. (laughs)

Mar-22-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: I'm a humble woodpusher. To me, a pawn is a pawn is a pawn.

I saw that 26. Nxb5 won a pawn and the other moves didn't. That was good enough for me.

Mar-22-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  moronovich: <That was good enough for me.>

Could be the beginning of a good
song...

<To me, a pawn is a pawn is a pawn.>

Doesnt work with tits.Or when the pawn reaches the eight or first rank.:)

Mar-22-17  Willber G: <perfidious: <Willber G: <Abdel Irada: <this criteria is>>>

Long and short of it is that most would overlook this, the singular being incorrectly used in place of the plural almost as a matter of course amongst even the otherwise well educated.>

Abdel sets high standards; I'm sure he didn't mind this rare anomaly being pointed out.

<the singular being incorrectly used in place of the plural>

I find it's more often the other way round.

Mar-22-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Abdel Irada: ∞

<<the singular being incorrectly used in place of the plural>

I find it's more often the other way round.>

As I just inadvertently demonstrated. :-S

For whatever reason, even educated English speakers are fond of saying "criteria" when they mean "criterion."

Mar-22-17  Willber G: <Abdel Irada: For whatever reason, even educated English speakers are fond of saying "criteria" when they mean "criterion.">

Yes, it is indeed a strange phenomena. ;-)

Mar-24-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Fusilli: Maybe "criterion" will end up vanishing, just like "datum" did. Data is technically plural, but by now, both singular and plural are standard usage for that word (http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/ed...).
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