< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Aug-05-08|| ||YouRang: I saw 9.Bxf7+ Kxf7 10.Nxe5+ right away, and satisfied myself that white would soon have a juicy king-hunt underway.|
Depending on where black tries to run, we will see our queen develop with check at h5 or g4. Our DSB will probably emerge at f4 with check, and probably later we'll see O-O-O+.
Of course, I also saw that black couldn't play 10...Nxe5 since it hangs his queen, so I was a little surprised to see it played. But perhaps it was his best chance...
Anyway, in my mind, that was good enough to consider the bishop sac worthwhile.
|Aug-05-08|| ||kevin86: Did I have to get the entire 32 moves right to solve this? I only got up to the point where black had to give up the queen for two pieces or be mated.|
Here is my idea:
9 xf7+ xf7 10 xe5+ e6 11 g4+ xe5 12 f5+ d4 13 e3+ c4 14 f7+ b4 15 b3+ a5 16 a4#
|Aug-05-08|| ||randallbsmith: Hey! This clarifies one of my major problems! When imagining how the board will look after some move, I seem to often miss the newly exposed lines of attack among the pieces .. like in this game after 10 ... Nxe5, black's queen is sitting there for the taking, and I didn't even notice! I mean I ran the calculation that far then rejected the line as being dopey for white, since he would be down two pieces for two pawns with no winning attacks to follow on the exposed king.|
I guess I seem to focus on the possibilotes generated by the mentally just-moved piece, ignoring the rest of the board.
Well, I'll try to keep this in mind but if anyone has some cognitive trick to help with this problem, other than "yeah, watch out for that stuff," or "keep practicing," please let me know. (There's nothing wrong with either suggestion, but you know, I already plan to try them.)
|Aug-05-08|| ||Slurpeeman: Didn't think about it deeply enough. Result - didn't get it. I looked at Nxe5 and seeing that it gives some trouble to Black, stopped there (( What was the rush, anyway???|
|Aug-05-08|| ||snarky: I have to disagree with some of the assessments so far about this being too complicated for a Tuesday.|
I'll probably take a lot of heat for this but I think there are some cases where complete calculation is impossible but the move required by the board is intuitively obvious.
In those cases I think you have to
1. check for traps
2. double check for traps
3. play with your instinct
I believe this is one such case. All players with a fundamental understanding of openings should see both the lead in development and the weakness on F7.
|Aug-05-08|| ||Slurpeeman: maybe, but it's the under (over?) estimation of a puzzle that sometimes leads one off the right solutionIsn't THAT instinctively obvious?|
what about 9.g6?
|Aug-05-08|| ||DeltaHawk: Since I'm pretty good at opening play, I immediately figured out the answer.|
|Aug-05-08|| ||snarky: OK if you want to insert another step
1a) Look for a better move
that's a good amendment
But I guess my point is this: if your opening (from white) includes your knight to f3 and your bishop to c4 then one of the underpinnings of your development is a threatened attack on f7. If black allows a weakness there and is otherwise undeveloped then the play is obvious. Just check that you aren't walking into a trap.
But again, it is good advice to always look for a better move once you have found a good one.
|Aug-05-08|| ||Once: <randallbsmith> No-one's answered your question, so I'll have a go.|
In the main, the best advice is probably the stuff that you've worked out for yourself - ie practice and look for tactics. I try to follow the kibitizing on this site by eye (ie without a board).
There's another technique that might help. When you are looking at a position, it sometimes pays to fantasise sbout impossible moves. In the puzzle position, you might think ...
1. If the white knight was not on f3, I could play Qh5. These sorts of x-ray moves can often help to visualise the queen's later path to h5.
2. If the black knight was not on e7, I could play QxQ. Or if I could decoy the black king away from the defence of the queen, I could win the queen.
3. I'd lke to play Nxe5.
4. I'd like to play Bxf7.
These wishes can then become elements of a combination. More ideas usually come to you as you investigate individual lines.
Often you need to juggle with the order of the moves to make them work. 9. Bxf7 followed by 10. Nxe5 works, but 9. Nxe5 followed by 10. Bxf7 doesn't.
I find that this position fantasising helps to improve board vision because it unlocks some of the secrets in a position.
|Aug-05-08|| ||dzechiel: <<snarky:> I have to disagree with some of the assessments so far about this being too complicated for a Tuesday.|
I'll probably take a lot of heat for this but I think there are some cases where complete calculation is impossible but the move required by the board is intuitively obvious.>
IMHO it seems to me that the "definition" of a Tuesday level position precludes intuitive sacrifices. By the time you are good enough to "feel" when a move is correct (rather than satisfy yourself by direct calculation) you have moved beyond the typical "Tuesday" level position somewhere into Saturday territory.
|Aug-05-08|| ||JG27Pyth: Like so many others this one struck me as beyond Tuesday, the key move wasn't hard to find, but it wasn't obvious at all that Black's best defense was to give up Q+2p for B and N. |
I wonder what the best line is after Ke6. After 10... Ke7 I think 11.Ng6+ Ke8 12.Qh5! is very strong.
Ke6 looks horrible and maybe there's a mating net I don't see but I wasn't able to find a clear win.
|Aug-05-08|| ||Woody Wood Pusher: Master Chess (32 bit 20 MHz) thinks 9...Ke7, 10. Bxg8, Rxg8 11.Nh4, Q e8 is black's best line of play with a + 1.7 evaluation. Seems pretty obvious that Kxf7 is suicide if you ask me!|
|Aug-05-08|| ||TheaN: <Operation Mindcrime: I have a question here - why is this listed as a "Lion Defense"? The name sounds interesting, but it looks like a Pirc (until g4, but then White often plays early King-side thrusts - h4 or g4 in such openings).>|
The Lion, originated (if I recall correctly) as Dutch opening as 'De Leeuw' (direct translation), or known as 'De Leeuw' in Dutch, is the striking 3....Nbd7 manouvre, planning to take it via f8 to g6. One of my clubmembers plays this regular, and wins a lot with it, a relatively new opening.
|Aug-05-08|| ||TheaN: 2/2
Bizarre Tuesday it seems. I cannot get my grip on all variations, but at least White wins a pawn, it seems. I've seen the word messy... I can get into that, to be honest.
A possible move, and White's best, but definitely not decisive. The point is that Black can immediately decline this sac in order not to fall into another. Black made some weird mistakes as 6....h6 and 7....c6 show, making Bxf7 almost like a regular move with such development problems.
First time in ages I can use the variation symbol (as I've had some bad weeks): Black should NOT accept this sacrifice, shows the continuation.
Now this is the only move for White to justify the Bishop loss, and Black is in trouble. However, replies aplenty, and White's not done yet.
Black's most terrible reply to cancel check. Pf7 is gone, and we know what is deadly when he is gone.
<11.Qh5† g6 12.Qxg6† Ke7 13.Qf7†>
Had to look here once more to be honest, thinking the King was dead meat going towards White, but c7 and b8 looked like promising retreat squares, but sadly, White can develop his DS Bishop with great tempo: checkmate.
<13....Kd6 14.Nc4† Kc5 (Kc7 15.Bf4† Bd6 16.Bxd6‡) 15.b4† Kxb4 (Kd4 16.Be3‡) 16.Ba3‡> Nice mate, but for one of the easiest variations maybe a bit too complex. The pattern with the open King was there though, and Ke8 was defenitely losing to Qh5†. Take note that all mates are unique to the DS Bishop, not yet developed before by White. 1-0
The Queen gets away, and White is simply up, in what you'd try to look at it. Less clear than Ke8, but surely not the best try by Black.
Now this is actually a key move, showing the strong White development trapping a King, even two pieces down.
Subsubvariation. This Tuesday has to be WAY to difficult to get ALL of it.
<11....Kxe4 12.Bf4† Kd4 13.Qd1†>
Mate on the way, but quite some moves left. The Black King can't escape this no longer; the trap is trivial. 1-0
Decisive enough, I'm getting bored typing this.
Look at the subvariation A/D, but with the Queen developed the Knight check is even worse.
Back on semi-main track. This is actually the least clear of all possible variations.
With an attack still going on, but careful play from White needed.
As said, not accepting seems better.
Seems to claim enough space and a badly placed King for Black, but I'm not getting more.
|Aug-05-08|| ||PinnedPiece: I saw forcing lines but only if black would play along.|
In the game, he did play along, but I think the analysis here shows black played weak lines from the puzzle move onward.
I guess this qualifies as a Tuesday because all lines give some advantage to white after the game move. But my thinking is more in line with <Once:
But I have to say that this struck me as harder than your typical Tuesday. There are a number of variations to calculate and no clear immediate win that I can see.>
|Aug-05-08|| ||johnlspouge: <<TheaN> wrote: [snip] The Lion, originated (if I recall correctly) as Dutch opening as 'De Leeuw' (direct translation) [snip] >|
On the subjects like this, <TheaN>, my unfortunate curiosity fills me with ridiculous linguistic questions. Babelfish gives the translation of Mata Hari's birthplace "Leeuwarden" as "Lion's Ears". Do you consider Babelfish's translation accurate? TIA :)
|Aug-05-08|| ||Slurpeeman: snarp, I agree with you on that.
Somehow I didn't "feel" the right move for todays' puzzle. I thought white should somehow bring the knight over to support the bishop. Once again, I draw a sad face ((. How is it possible that I've been doing chess puzzles for a while now (I've also done a whole lot of them from Reinfeld's "1001 winning sacs and combinations" and "Chess Problems by Eight eminent composers". Why is that?
and 2) somehow I don't see the tactical maneuvers in overboard play as quickly as I do when solving the puzzles. Can someone give me advice on how to get rid of these flaws?
|Aug-05-08|| ||Slurpeeman: The thing that surprises me the most, however, is that someone who fell for some opening trap like that is actually a GM...?????|
|Aug-05-08|| ||DavidD: Masters, especially GMs, have a unique ability to show flexibility in their thinking processes as well as suspend their biases about a position. They examine moves critically and derive their conclusions carefully. The basic problem with puzzles is that you know it is a "White/Black to move and win" position. Yet during a tournament game, there is no such notice. Any position might be a "move to win" position, and if we knew it was, we'd probably be more likely to find the win. |
Chessplayers need to learn to suspend their biases as much as possible. It is a horrible bias to think "This is a Tuesday puzzle, so it must be easy." Such comments indicate a more serious chess thinking problem because the player is starting to solve the puzzle with terrible preconceived notions. Whether it is a Monday "Easy" or Sunday "Insane", every position should be set up on a board and examined as if under tournament conditions. Putting a clock on the position, and setting it for 10 or 20 minutes, does wonders to improve the thinking. Forget what day the puzzle is presented, and even try to forget you are solving a puzzle. Examine each position on its own merits. Strive to eliminate bias in chess thinking!
|Aug-05-08|| ||TheaN: <On the subjects like this, <TheaN>, my unfortunate curiosity fills me with ridiculous linguistic questions. Babelfish gives the translation of Mata Hari's birthplace "Leeuwarden" as "Lion's Ears". Do you consider Babelfish's translation accurate? TIA :)>|
I don't know where it gets 'ears'. That should have been a translation of the word 'arden' which does not even resemble the Dutch word for ears which is 'oren'. To be honest, arden is not even a word at all, or I must be missing it in my vocabulary of my native language. Which I doubt, obviously.
Where Leeuwarden did come from I do not know. Take note that this is the capital of the province Friesland, whom consider them being different, also in dialect (Fries), from the rest of the Netherlands. It might have been a correlation with something in Fries, I should look that up.
So, no, Babelfish is incorrect.
|Aug-05-08|| ||johnlspouge: <<TheaN> wrote: [snip] Where Leeuwarden did come from I do not know.>|
Now, my brain is in high gear and is flooding with the usual weird associations.
Dale Arden was the name of Flash Gordon's girlfriend, so a Google on "name origin Arden" picks up http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meani..., telling us the girls name "Arden" is of Latin origin, meaning "great forest". The URL mentions the Forest of Arden in Shakespeare's "As You Like It", which says a lot about the sort of thing I am likely to forget.
Between us, as solidly as any chess puzzle, we probably nailed Leeuwarden down. Thanks for indulging me.
|Aug-05-08|| ||YouRang: <Too hard for a Tuesday?> A subjective point, of course, but I didn't think it was.|
Firstly, 9.Bxf7+ was a pretty obvious try. Yes, black can decline the bishop with 9...Ke7, but I don't think we need to work hard on this line. At the very least, I've stolen a pawn, and more importantly, I've permanently weakened the black king's defense. No longer able to castle, it is stuck in the middle of a fairly open position. White can start developing pieces with check (or threats), and black must spend his time trying to put out fires.
So we really only have to make sure that 9...Kxf7 can be answered successfully.
Again, 10.Nxe5+ is pretty obvious. With the king on f7, no longer guarding his queen, 10...Nxe5 loses the queen. We don't have to explore that line much further...
White has a number of benefits from that last move: (1) The king is in check, (2) We've opened the d1-h5 diagonal for our queen to develop at g4 or h5, (3) we've gained another pawn, and (4) by eliminating the e5 pawn, we've opened the b8-h2 diagonal for our DSB to develop on f4, cutting off the king's escape to d6 and c7.
After we move our queen (to g4 or h5), we have the option to play O-O-O, bringing our rook into the attack, which will be particularly fun if the king is out on the wide open d-file.
My point is that it doesn't take long to see that we're gonna get 2 pawns and vicious king hunt in exchange for the bishop sac. I don't think that one needs to calculate much further to know that the bishop sac is well worth it.
|Aug-07-08|| ||patzer2: Here's some analysis with the Opening
Explorer, several online sources and a lot of back and forth move-by-move with Fritz 8:
<1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nbd7>
Most often played here is 3...g6, entering the main line Pirc.
The move 3...Nbd7 has been gaining support at the GM level, but has a long way
to go to replace the traditional Pirc (3...g6) in popularity.
In conjunction with 1...d6, 3...Nbd7 establishes a Pirc-Philidor hybrid,
which is one of several possibilities within the opening system known as "The Lion,"
which was researched and published as a Book by the Dutch chessmasters and analysts
Leo Jansen & Jerry van Rekom. A description of "The Lion" can be found at the
web site, http://www.vanrekom.nl/thelion/inde..., which touts it as an
"incredible strong weapon against all the white opening moves." Indeed, one
common thread in this "system" is that Black can play most of the same moves,
such as ...d6, ...Nbd7, ...e5 etc., and achieve the same setup against most
standard White opening moves (1. d4, 1. c4, 1. e5 etc.). Marsh Towers,
who has had some success with the opening, annotates some of his best games in
this system at http://marshtowers.blogspot.com/200....
This aggressive move attempts to foil Black's attempt at reaching a comfortable
Better here is 4...h6 as in Black's
wins in A Lastin vs Azmaiparashvili, 2004 and
V Laznicka vs C Bauer, 2006. By the way, GM Bauer
also wrote an excellent book on the Philidor(The Philidor Files, 2006), where he
covers this opening line. A good review of the Philidor files can be found at
before you begin to think it's easy sailing for Black with 4...h6 you might wish
to see the wins White scored against this "opening system" in
A Moiseenko vs C Landenbergue, 2007 and in
Kudrin vs V Akobian, 2008.
<5. g5 Ng8 6. Nf3 h6 7. Bc4 c6?!>
Black can put up more resistance with 7...exd4 or 7... Nb6 . One possibility
is 7...Nb6 8. Be2 exd4 9. Qxd4 Qe7 10. Be3 hxg5 11.Bxg5 f6 12. Be3 Nh6 13. a4 Ng4
14. a5 Nd7 15. Nd5 Qd8 16. a6 c6 17. Nf4 Nde5 18. axb7 Bxb7 19. Bd2 Qb6 20. Qxb6 axb6
21. Rxa8+ Bxa8 22. Nxe5 Nxe5 23. O-O Bb7 24. Ra1 g5 25. Ra7 gxf4 26. Rxb7 f3 27. Bd3 b5 =.
<8. dxe5 dxe5?!>
Black's position is already difficult, but this makes it a bit too easy for
White. Black could have put up more resistance with 8... Qe7, but White is
still winning after 9. g6 fxg6 10. exd6 Qf6 11. Be3 Bxd6 12. Bd4 Ne5 13. Nxe5 Bxe5
14. Bxe5 Qxe5 15. Qd2 b5 16. f4 Qh5 17. Bb3 Ne7 18. Rg1 a5 19. a4 Qh4+ 20. Rg3 bxa4
21. Nxa4 g5 22. Nc5 Qxf4 23. Qxf4 gxf4 24. Rxg7 Rf8 25. Rh7 Ng8 26. Ba4 Ne7 27. Rxh6 .
After this demolition sham sacrifice, Black must surrender decisive material or get mated.
|Aug-07-08|| ||patzer2: <9...Kxf7>
Black's position is hopelessly lost.
If 9...Ke7, White has a number of
easy wins at his disposal, such as 9...Ke7 10. Bb3 , 9...Ke7 10. g6 , 9...
Ke7 10. Bg6 and 9...Ke7 10. Bh5 .
<10. Nxe5+ Nxe5>
Black has nothing better than surrendering the Queen for two pieces, which still leaves
him with a lost game.
If 10... Ke8, then White has a mate-in-six with 11. Qh5+ g6
12. Qxg6+ Ke7 13. Qf7+ Kd6 14. Nc4+! Kc7 (14... Kc5 15. Be3+ Kb4 16. a3#)
15.Bf4+ Bd6 16. Bxd6#
If 10... Ke6, then one likely possibility is 11.
Qg4+ Kxe5 (11... Kd6 12. Nf7+ ; 11... Ke7 12. Ng6+ ) 12. Bf4+ Kd4 13.
Be3+ Ke5 14. O-O-O hxg5 15. Qf5#.
If 10... Ke7, then another possible outcome is 11. Ng6+ Ke8 12. Qh5 Rh7 13. Ne5+ Ke7 14.
Qf7+ Kd6 15. Nc4+ Kc5 16. Be3+ Kb4 17. a3#.
<11. Qxd8 Be7 12. Qc7!>
Even with a Queen for two minor pieces, White must play well. Here, 12. Qc7!is
White's strongest move, as tempting alternatives could throw away the win.
For example, White has to find some difficult moves to maintain the win in the
tricky line 12. Qd1 Bg4! 13. f3! Nxf3+ (13... Bxf3 14. Rf1 ; 13... Rd8 14. fxg4
Rxd1+ 15. Kxd1 ) 14. Kf2! .
<12... Nf3+ 13. Kd1 hxg5 14. Be3 Nf6 15. Kc1
Be6 16. Bc5 Rhe8 17. Qxb7 Rab8 18. Qc7 Rbc8 19. Qa5 Bd8 20. Qxa7+ Nd7 21. Rd1
Nfe5 22. Bd6 Kg8 23. Bxe5 Nxe5 24. Rxd8!>
White can win without this sham exchange
sacrifice, but it actually appears to be his strongest move here. Without the
communication of the dark squared Bishop, Black is practically devoid of counter
attacking possibilities and his isolated pawns become easier targets.
No better is 24... Rexd8 25. a4, when play might continue 25...Rd7 26. Qc5 Nf3
27. b4 Kf7 28. a5 Rd4 29. Qb6 Rdd8 30. Na4 Ne5 31. Qb7+ Kf6 32. Nb6 Rb8 33. Qc7 Nd7
34. Ra3 Nxb6 35. axb6 Rdc8 36. Qd6 Re8 37. f4 Rbd8 38. Qe5+ Kf7 39. Ra7+ Bd7 40. Qd6 .
<25. Qc5 Bf7 26. b3 g4 27. Ne2 Nf3 28. Ng3 Re5 29. Qb6 Ree8 30. Kb2 Ne5 31. Qc5
Rd2 32. Kc3 Rdd8 33. a4 Nd7 34. Qg5 Nf6 35. Re1 Rd7 36. Nf5 Bd5 37. Nxg7 Rxg7
38. Qxf6 Rf8 39. Qd6 Rf3+ 40. Re3 Be6?!> 1-0
Black resigns as his last move loses quickly to 41. Rxf3
gxf3 42. Qxe6+ Kh7 43. Qf5+ Kg8 44. e5 Ra7 45. Qg6+ Rg7 46. Qxg7+ Kxg7 47. Kd4 .
However, Black's frustration in a clearly lost position is understandable.
|Sep-03-08|| ||just a kid: wow Black was lost by his 8th move!|
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