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Apr-11-22
 | | jnpope: Thanks for checking and updating Zukertort's opponent. |
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Apr-11-22
| | jnpope: Digging deeper into the Hazeltine scrapbook for the Glasgow Weekly Herald: Zukertort vs Grant, 1873
Zukertort vs Grant, 1873 This appears to be "R. M. Grant", a leading member of the Glasgow Chess Club (still hunting for a full name). Zukertort vs P Birch, 1873 I believe this is "James Birch" of the Queen's Park Chess Club, Crosshill, Scotland, and not "P. Birch" from Manchester, England. |
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Apr-11-22
| | jnpope: I've got a "J. Steegmann" for:
Steegmann vs Zukertort, 1873 And "A. Ross" for:
Ross vs Zukertort, 1873 Both members of the Glasgow Chess Club. |
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Apr-11-22
| | jnpope: And to finish, this appears to be "W. MacTarget", class II player from the Glasgow Chess Club: Zukertort vs McTarget, 1873 |
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Apr-11-22
| | jnpope: Dr. James C. Frazer (James Cunningham Fraser) His obit was published in the Glasgow Weekly Herald (column dated 9 September 1876 in v91 of the Hazeltine Scrapbook, pdf p159). His games are consistently given as "Dr. Frazer" and I've found no case in the Glasgow Weekly Herald where he given as "Dr. Fraser". Perhaps we should change his name from Fraser to Frazer to lessen confusion with "Mr. Fraser" (George Brunton Fraser)? |
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Apr-11-22
 | | MissScarlett: I'd only be in favour of that if it could be shown that he used that fashion himself. Going by these sideburns, I'm not hopeful: https://www.chessscotland.com/docum... |
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Apr-11-22
| | jnpope: I'm indifferent. Just pointing out that the Glasgow Weekly Herald consistently used Frazer for the Edinburgh doctor and Fraser for the Dundee mister. Interestingly that photo gives Frazer at the top and bottom. |
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Apr-11-22
| | MissScarlett: We demand high standards in the Bistro. Changing player names to accommodate slackness is the thin edge of the wedge. For the same reason, I opposed the introduction of <Max Lange> I & II. |
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Apr-11-22
| | jnpope: Just curious, but under what basis did he go in as Fraser? The issue seems to always be which name do we consistently use... birth name (Wolf Steinitz), commonly used name during chess career (Wilhelm Steinitz) or name used at time of death (William Steinitz)? |
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| Apr-11-22 | | Z free or die: I suggest trying to follow the form used in the contemporaneous English language press as much as possible. (Which is at least somewhat helpful when doing research) I find some of the birth certificate research, while interesting on its own terms, a "tad" pedantic and, shall "we" say, slightly overwrought. Note it in the bio page, sure, but let's be reasonable with the PGN names. Now, Steinitz is a clear bifurcated case - it's really a coin toss between Wilhelm or William. Luckily, everybody knows what player it is in either case. A harder case comes from the modern day -
Artur Yusupov
https://ratings.fide.com/profile/46...
Widely known in English as Yusupov, his FIDE card clearly indicates his current preference as <Jussupow, Artur> Both names are now widely present in the literature (well, the English literature, maybe not the German). |
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Apr-11-22
 | | jessicafischerqueen:
I like <z's> idea here: <I suggest trying to follow the form used in the contemporaneous English language press as much as possible.
(Which is at least somewhat helpful when doing research)> |
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Apr-11-22
| | jessicafischerqueen:
<jnpope> I just realized that a second ago- and deleted my post. |
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Apr-11-22
| | MissScarlett: On naming conventions, players typically have a long and short version of their names - as can be seen in the example of Manuel Aaron, the shorter version being M Aaron vs Euwe, 1960. The initial of the better known players is often discarded: Alexander Alekhine and Alekhine vs A Gize, 1905. But I've noticed that for many, if not most, Asian players, this practice isn't routinely followed, e.g. Ding Liren, and the full name persists. Many - but not all - Asian countries have the family name first, which I assume explains the reluctance to apply the same standard. What to do? |
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| Apr-11-22 | | Z free or die: <Missy> The short name is a convenience, mostly used for game listings on <CG>'s webpage. Clearly distinct from the PGN, or formal, <CG> name. As for the Asian names, this is mostly a contemporary problem, whose solution is then fairly straight-forward, ie. follow the FIDE name card. The rationale here, is that the player themselves presumably have taken the time to match the FIDE name with their preference. (And yes, some Chinese follow the Western convention, and others don't) Actually, if you follow FIDE naming, you'll match most other DB's pretty well, e.g. TWIC, and whatever live tournament is currently online. . |
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| Apr-11-22 | | Z free or die: Have we talked about Hungarian players yet?
. |
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Apr-11-22
| | jnpope: Only vowel usage. Not sure if we've discussed players with Germanic names that converted to Hungarian names during their careers. |
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| Apr-11-22 | | Z free or die: I was thinking about surname, first name ordering... I remember we did diacritics!
(BTW- ever read the ChessBase article on Indian names?) |
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Apr-11-22
| | MissScarlett: Cultural sensitivity/ignorance is also the apparent reason why many Latin/Hispanic players are not being foreshortened: https://www.chessgames.com/perl/che... |
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| Apr-11-22 | | Z free or die: https://en.chessbase.com/post/what-... Well, lunch is almost over, back to the mines... |
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Apr-11-22
| | MissScarlett: <As for the Asian names, this is mostly a contemporary problem, whose solution is then fairly straight-forward, ie. follow the FIDE name card.> More of an evasion than a solution. |
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Apr-11-22
| | jnpope: For name order I think the PGN spec indicates using the English format of "lastname, firstname" where lastname is the surname/family name/ancestral name and firstname is the individual's common name? |
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Apr-11-22
| | MissScarlett: But what's wrong with <D Liren>? |
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Apr-11-22
| | MissScarlett: <Asian countries have the family name first> Does this happen because some languages read right to left? |
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Apr-11-22
| | jnpope: No idea, but would it be given as "Ding, Liren" if we were to follow the literal PGN spec (as Ding is the family name)? Not sure if the PGN spec covers cultures without a family name, i.e. "Viswanathan Anand" is basically a polynym with no surname. I'm having a hard enough time trying to figure out what we do with people who literally changed their name half-way through their playing career. Do we go with the name on the birth certificate or the name on the death certificate? I see we went with hybridization with Leo Fleischmann Forgacs (which I guess has the benefit of him turning up if either last name is used in a search). |
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Apr-11-22
| | jnpope: Does anyone know how Viswanathan Anand would indexed for a printed encyclopedia entry or listed in a phonebook, i.e. would he be in the As or the Vs? Anyways, back to "Dr. Frazer". Gaige gives Fraser and the only source he lists is the death certificate, so I'm presuming that's why we went with that particular spelling. |
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