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Edgar Colle vs Jose Raul Capablanca
"Colle Slaw" (game of the day May-15-2014)
Karlsbad (1929), Karlsbad CSR, rd 18, Aug-22
Indian Game: Capablanca Variation (A47)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Given 14 times; par: 52 [what's this?]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
May-15-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WannaBe: KAW-lee as rhymes with Gaw-ly? =)
May-15-14  Rookiepawn: <Petrosianic> It says that, true, but the final "lee" seems rather an English pronunciation. I tend to think it is more what <WDenayer> says, which sounds more French. The final "e" is like the first "e" in English "better", but a little shorter, more like an innuendo than really saying it. The famous tricky frenchy e. So I guess, anyway.
May-15-14  weisyschwarz: Good pun. Cole slaw is made from shredded cabbage, and Capablanca shredded Colle's opening.

Believe you me, there have been far far worse puns than this.

May-15-14  Caissas Clown: I could see a Fischer or a Kasparov playing not 15.N2b3 , but instead 15.F5 and getting at least two !!'s for it.

I could see ME playing 15.F5 and getting criticised - probably deservedly ! - for being a woodpusher.

May-16-14  RookFile: He might as well play f5 at some point. Otherwise his previous moves have no meaning.
May-16-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: <Petrosianic: There's a poem in some old book that tells you how to pronounce all the old Master's names, and a lot of them aren't what you think. Some of the most misprounced: Colle (rhymes with Collie)>

Not if he was a Walloon. Then it would rhyme with Roll.

<Tarrasch (rhymes with Parish)>

I think it would rhyme with Parash.

<Alekhine (sounds like "Al-yek-kin")>

But surely he Frenchified his name. So I think it would be pronounced simply Alec-Keene.

<Keres (sounds like "Care-ESS")>

No. Surely it is Ker-Esh.

May-16-14  Petrosianic: The poem is from a 1949 issue of Chess Review. It's supposed to be a love poem, of sorts. I don't have the whole thing handy, but it starts out:

<Oh! she is the Tarrasch
Of this parish.
Tartakover
Is her lover,
and Ragozin
is her cousin.

Will she, will she
Always Flohr me?
Will she never Phil-adore me?
Will she never
Care a damn bit
For my Center
Counter Gambit?

I will have to pull my neck in
For she dotes upon Alekhin.
I will have to pull my oar in
For she dotes upon Tchigorin!

Yes --
An' what of
Kotov?>

May-16-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: <WDenayer: Colle is not pronounced KAW-lee, the name pronunciation guide is crap. I'm originally from Belgium. I know how Colle is pronounced. It doesn't sound like KAW-lee one bit.>

I agree. I think the source of the problem is that frequently French-speaking people add a definite ə ¸¸onto the ends of words.

The name could be pronounced as Collə.

May-16-14  Petrosianic: <No. Surely it is Ker-Esh.>

If it is, it's a good thing his first name wasn't David.

May-16-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: <Petrosianic: <No. Surely it is Ker-Esh.> If it is, it's a good thing his first name wasn't David.>

At last!! At long long last I can FINALLY link to my favourite-ever chess lookalike! At LAST!

Here it is. Prepare to be astounded.
Emanuel Lasker

May-16-14  john barleycorn: <Petrosianic> that poem is terrible.
May-16-14  Petrosianic: It goes on a lot longer, and doesn't get any better. But it does tell you how chessplayer's names are prounounced.

Except Kotov. I still haven't the slighest idea how to pronounce Kotov to make it rhyme with "what of". The Chess.com page says it sounds like KOE-tahf, which is what I would expect.

May-16-14  john barleycorn: koe-toff.
May-16-14  Granny O Doul: Chess Life (I think) wrote a pronunciation guide to certain player names, c. 1980, to which Burt Hochberg (I think) wrote a rebuttal in the NYS chess mag (I think).

I remember his rebuttal saying something like 'The Belgian master Colle's name is not pronounced "like the dog" and the dog's name is not pronounced "CAW-lee"'. I think BH came down for something like "COH-lay" (more or less rhyming with the Mexican chocolate sauce "mole").

May-17-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  pawn to QB4: <offramp: <Petrosianic: There's a poem in some old book that tells you how to pronounce all the old Master's names, and a lot of them aren't what you think. Some of the most misprounced: Colle (rhymes with Collie)> Not if he was a Walloon. Then it would rhyme with Roll.>

don't know whether he was a Walloon, but I'd have thought the betting should be on Flemish, given that he came from Ghent. Great place to visit btw, and Flemish is very much the language of the town. I imagine Petrosianic's source is probably correct.

May-18-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: User: WDenayer seems pretty emphatic about the pronunciation, and he's a belgo.
May-18-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  pawn to QB4: well, yes i saw his post and it does make me cautious. But you've assumed that Colle was of a French speaking people (<I think the source of the problem is that frequently French-speaking people add a definite ə ¸¸onto the ends of words.>) and I'd ask WDenayer if he thought the same. Here, on the other hand, is a guide to how you pronounce Flemish, including that final "e": <http://www.pronunciationguide.info/...> , and when I was in Colle's birthplace it was so clearly a Flemish city that my English was more use to me than my French. On t'other hand, I can't stand facing his dismal Colle System so if we can settle the matter I'll be happy to repay the grief by choosing the wrong option.
Jun-01-16  dehanne: <After 9.cd Nb4, Black snags the bishop pair. If 10.Bb1, then ...Ba6 11.Re1 Nd3.> As if obtaining the bishop pair means an automatic advantage.

After 12.Bxd3 Bxd3 13.d5 white is better.

Jun-02-16  SimonWebbsTiger: @<dehanne>

this has indeed been played before.

ECO A gives 13...exd5 14. exd5 Nxd5 15. Nb3 Nb4 16. Qd2 0-0 (Psakhis) as unclear.

Jul-12-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: <WDenayer: Colle is not pronounced KAW-lee, the name pronunciation guide is crap. I'm originally from Belgium. I know how Colle is pronounced. It doesn't sound like KAW-lee one bit. Euwe does not sound like Erva at all. I do not know who's making up such nonsense.> You told us how the names are not pronounced, but not how they are pronounced.
Jul-12-16  drleper: I was in the Netherlands recently, and I asked how Euwe is pronounced. The reply sounded like a blend between 'oh-way' and 'er-way' to me. As long as you say that in a sort of upper-class British accent, it sounds about right.
Jul-12-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: So far as I know, Euwe is pronounced ER-ver as in fervour.
Sep-01-20  W Westerlund: Okay offramp (4 years later), think of 'Doll', but instead of a 'd' use a 'c' which sounds like a k, now you have 'koll'. Now add an 'e' which has to sound like a short 'eh' as in 'eh what?'. I can't do better than this. There is no 'r' sound in Euwe and I can't explain how it sounds, but it is not 'oh-way' either.
Sep-01-20  sudoplatov: Colle collared.
Sep-02-20  Granny O Doul: Largely for fun, I checked forvo.com for its suggested pronunciations of Max Euwe and Edgard Colle. Each name had just one member weighing in. Liadan of the Netherlands spoke the former name, and her "Euwe" sounded roughly as "Hayward" does if you don't pronounce its H, R or D. His first name sounded like "Mocksh".

Then we had WimYogya of Indonesia handling the Belgian's name. It sounded to me like "Edhard Cola".

I don't claim that this settles anything.

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