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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Jun-14-13 | | Patriot: Yeah I'm definitely tired. 25.Bb5 in the second line is impossible since that is black's bishop! At least my first line is close. |
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| Jun-14-13 | | Patriot: <Dr. J> 23.Bxe5 looked like the best try to me since it attempts to win the pawn back. I thought about 23.Bh6 to weaken the pawn structure, which is definitely a shot although it seems easier to try and win the pawn back right away. I guess seeing how strong chess engines often evaluate positions has made me more of a materialist. |
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Jun-14-13
 | | Phony Benoni: <Patriot>: After 21...Nxf2 22.Nxf2 e5 23.Bxe5 fxe5 24.Bxf1, there is an interesting possibility with 24...Bxf1 25.Rxf1 (25.Kxf1?? Rf8) Rd2:
click for larger viewHow does White break the pin and save his pawns? |
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| Jun-14-13 | | ounos: Bah. I only considered 22. ...g5 (isn't this winning too?), and peeked the solution. |
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| Jun-14-13 | | Patriot: <Phony Benoni> I completely agree with you. There is no doubt, black holds the cards. White is really in a bind after 25...Rd2. He may try 26.b4 Bd4 but it seems at least one of the white pawns on the queenside (probably both) will be lost. |
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| Jun-14-13 | | Patriot: <ounos> Actually 22...g5 is a nice try (it just seems there is more to calculate). Houdini suggests 23.b4 gives black only a slight advantage (other moves give a clear advantage). |
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Jun-14-13
 | | al wazir: I missed 22...e5, without which 21...Nxf2 is pointless. But didn't black give white a chance to save himself by playing 20...f6 instead of the immediate 20...Nxf2 ? In the game line white could have played, e.g., 21. Ne3 and lost only a ♙ (albeit with a terrible position). |
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| Jun-14-13 | | agb2002: The material is identical.
White threatens 22.hxg4.
The white pieces are poorly coordinated and f2 is a very weak square because the bishop on a6 controls f1. This suggests 21... Nxf2: A) 22.Nxf2 e5
A.1) 23.Bc1 Rd1+ 24.Kh2 Bxf2 25.Bb2 (to prevent ... Bd4 followed by ... Bd3 and to unpin the bishop) 25... Rd2 A.1.a) 26.Ba3 Bd4 wins a second pawn.
A.1.b) 26.Rb1 Bd3 27.Bc3 Bxb1 28.Bxd2 Bxa2 - + [2P].
A.1.c) 26.Bc3 Rd3 and 27... Bxg3+ - + [2P].
A.1.d) 26.Bc1 Rd3 27.h4 (27.g4 Bg3+ 28.Kg1 Rd1+ wins a bishop) 27... Bxg3+ wins another pawn at least. A.2) 23.Be3 Bxe3 24.Bf1 Bxf1
A.2.a) 25.Rxf1 Rd2 26.a3 Ra2 27.a4 Rb2 wins a second pawn. A.2.b) 25.Kxf1 Rd2 26.Nd1 Bd4 27.Rc1 Rxa2 wins a second pawn. A.3) 23.Bxe5 fxe5 is similar to A.2 but wins one pawn less. A.4) 23.a3 exf4 24.gxf4 Rd2 wins a piece.
A.5) 23.Bf1 Bxf1 looks similar to A.3.
B) 22.Kh2 Rxd1 wins a piece and a pawn. |
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| Jun-14-13 | | Boerboel Guy: I got it wrong!
21....Rxd1 is what I would have played over the board, but it does not seem to work :-( |
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| Jun-14-13 | | Dr. Funkenstein: I looked at Rxd1 for a long time trying to make it work, but given the check on d8, it just doesn't lead to anything
So finally, I found 21. ...Nxf2! 22. Nxf2 e5 and the bishop is trapped. 23. Bxe5 fxe5 24. Bf1 Bxf1 25. Rxf1 Rd2 and now one of the queenside pawns drops I believe 23. Bf1 Bxf1 24. Rxf1 exf4 25. gxf4 Rd2 and now again the queenside pawns or the f4 pawn (after Be3) drops before white can break the pin I didn't consider the game line of gxf4 instead of Bxf1 Hmm, seems a little murky, but black appears to win at least a pawn in every variation... I look forward to the stronger players/commentators on this site showing some defenses for white that make things more difficult |
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| Jun-14-13 | | Nick46: I capitulate. The week is too far advanced for the weak. |
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| Jun-14-13 | | SimonWebbsTiger: http://www.chess.com/article/view/c... should turn on people's radar. |
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| Jun-14-13 | | morfishine: Ditto <Phony Benoni> Word for Word, literally |
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| Jun-14-13 | | morfishine: FWIW: Poor Llodra; Here, Igor Ivanov rips the White position apart:
J Gaya Llodra vs Igor Ivanov, 1992 |
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| Jun-14-13 | | gofer: This took a while to see...
<21 ... Nxf2>
<22 Nxf2 e5>
The bishop has no where good to go, but white has lots of choices! 23 Bc1 Rd1+ 24 Kh2 Bxf2 25 Bb2 Rxa1 26 Bxa1 Bd4 27 Bxd4 exd4  23 Kh2 Bxf2 24 Bc1 transposes
23 Bf3 exf4 24 gxf4 Re2
23 Bxe5 fxe5
Time to check...
~~~
<23 Bf1! ...>
Which is a great defence, considering the alternatives, and allows white to fight on far further than I had anticipated. Though I had seen exf4 and then fxg3 creating the pin, I never thought it would come to that... <23 ... exf4>
<24 Bxa3 fxg3>
<25 Bc4+ Ke8>
<26 Be5! ...>
Excellent defense by white, at this point white still has some
chance of defense, but Gulko had it covered, by opening another
file for his rook!
<27 ... f5!>
Only now does white's chances start to really look slim! Very Nice <CG>!!! |
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| Jun-14-13 | | fokers13: Like <ounos> i saw g5 . Satisfied with it honestly. |
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| Jun-14-13 | | zb2cr: Missed this completely. Couldn't find the correct follow-up. |
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| Jun-14-13 | | James D Flynn: Material is equal Black’s pieces have more scope than White’s and his R is more actively placed, his immediate problem is what to do with the attacked N. One possibility is to attack White B in return by 21….e5 22.Be3(not 22.hxg4 exf4 23.gxf4 Rd2 and Black has gained the 2 Bs in an open endgame with the White pieces very passively placed: the Nis stuck on d1 to defend the pawn on f2 the R can only leave his back ran with a check and Black threatens to advance his K to d file or to g3 to avoid checks then the Bs can force the White R off the back rank)Nxe3 23.Nxe3 and Black has 2 Bs in an open endgame and can if he wishes Play Bxe3 to weaken White's pawn structure. Another possibility is 21.….Nxf2 22.Nxf2 e5 23.Bc1 Rd1+ 24.Kh2 Bxf2 25.Bb2 Rd2 26.Ba3(not Bc3 Rd3 and the g3 pawn falls) Bd3 here Black is a pawn up and White’s pieces are passive Black threatens Bxe4 and if 27.Re1 Rxa2 28.Bc1 Ra1 if 27.Kh1 Bxg3 and with 2 pawns up Black has a won endgame. |
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| Jun-14-13 | | mistreaver: Friday. Black to play. Difficult.21?
Key factor in the position is weakness of f2 pawn.
It looks very tempting either to remove the either that pawn, or the knight defending it.
However, after the immediate:
21... Rxd1+
22 Rxd1 Nxf2
23 Re8+ Kf7
24 Re7+ Kg6
25 Rxa7
i would rather be white.
Same goes for:
21... Rxd1+
22 Rxd1 Bxf2+
23 Kh1
Then i started looking at the g5, similar to the game Fischer-Polugayevski at Mallorca Interzonal:
21...g5!?
A)
22 Be3 Nxe3
23 Nxe3 Rd2 and i think black is much better
B)
22 hxg4 gxf3
23 gxf4 Be2
24 Ne3 Bxe3
25 fxe3 Bxg4
and i think black has favourable endgame.
I can't see anything more promising, time to check and see how it went.
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Yep, i evaluated everything correctly, even looked briefly at Nxf2, but missed e5!.
The endgame i mentioned is slightly better for black, but it is a queston whether it can be converted if one is not Magnus Carlsen. |
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| Jun-14-13 | | johnlspouge: < <fokers13> wrote: Like <ounos> i saw g5 > Unexpected "puzzle moves" often involve a threatened piece sacrificing itself. If you are going to die, why not die for a cause? I therefore examined 21...Nxf2 first (and never bothered with anything else). |
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| Jun-14-13 | | kevin86: I was looking at the rook sac at d1-so I had is bass-ackwards. |
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| Jun-14-13 | | BOSTER: <Dr.J> <the "main variation" 23.Bc1>.
I do't think so.
After obvious 21...Nxf2 22.Nxf2 e5
My guess that white should play 23.b4 to <encourage> the bishop c5 to go on d4 with <interference> Rd8-Rd2 , or 23.Bf1. |
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| Jun-14-13 | | whiteshark: This <22... e5> was to subtile for me. Never mind. Cheers. :D |
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| Jun-14-13 | | M.Hassan: "Difficult"
Black to play 21...
Equal
21..........Nxf2
22.Nxf2 e5
Bishop has virtually nowhere to go. On e3 and d2 it will be captured and on c1 blocks Rook's line of action and decides to at least get a pawn for itself. 23.Bxe5 fxe5
24.Bf1 Bb7
25.Bc4+ Kf8
26.Bd5 Bxd5
27.exd5 Rxd5
28.Kf1
Black becomes a pawn up with a central passed pawn. I did not see a mate. |
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| Jun-14-13 | | M.Hassan: <Phony Benoni>:Patriot: After 21...Nxf2 22.Nxf2 e5 23.Bxe5 fxe5 24.Bxf1, there is an interesting possibility with 24...Bxf1 25.Rxf1 (25.Kxf1?? Rf8) Rd2:> Is it 24.Bf1 and not 24.Bxf1? |
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Kibitzing
sac: 21...Nxf2