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| Jan-31-07 | | IMDONE4: immortal indeed... 7. Qe1! gives white a small advantage |
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| Jan-31-07 | | ganstaman: <al wazir> How about after 7. Nc5, 7...f5? I'm not too sure, but it renews the threat against e4 while providing black with a few checks to gain time (time to get the queen away if attacked) and a nice central pawn mass if allowed to play ...fxe4. |
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| Jan-31-07 | | ganstaman: <IMDONE4: immortal indeed... 7. Qe1! gives white a small advantage> From page 2 of the kibitzing:
<Shadout Mapes: 7.Qe1 dxe4+ 8.Qxe4 Bf5 > <crafty: 7. ♕e1 ♘f6 8. g3 ♕xe4+ 9. ♕xe4 ♘xe4 10. ♔e3 ♗d7  (eval 1.78; depth 12 ply; 1000M nodes)> <clocked: 7.Qe1 black STILL can sac the queen for a draw!
7.Qe1 Nf6 8.g3 and NOT crafty's Qxe4 but instead 8. ... Qg4 9.Bh3 dxe4 10.Kc3 Nd5+ 11.Kb3 Nc6 12.Bxg4 (12.c3 Qg6 13.Bxc8 Rxc8 14.Nc5 e3!) Na5+ 13.Ka3 Nc4+ etc black can always try for more with 10. or 11. ... Qg6 > I don't claim that these are all correct as I haven't read them over so much, but it seems black still has quite a bit of fight even after 7. Qe1. |
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| Jan-31-07 | | DanRoss53: <ganstaman [...] Many suggest 11. Kb5, if I'm not mistaken, though I believe black still maintains numerous compensating threats.> Toga says 11. ♔b5 b6 12. d4 exd4 13. ♕xd4 ♘e7 14. ♕xc5 ♗d7+ 15. ♔b4 a5+ 16. ♕xa5 ♖xa5 is better for White (coming out a pawn-for-a-Bishop in material), but I haven't thoroughly checked for refutations... |
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Jan-31-07
 | | al wazir: <ganstaman>: After 7. Nc5 f5, white has essentially a free move. Whichever ♙ black uses to take on e4, white is NOT going to recapture! Instead, he will play 9. Kc3 (or 9. Kc2 following 8. c3/c4). Then black will have two ♙s for his ♗, and they form an imposing cluster in the middle, but I don't see how he continues the attack. So what should white play following 7...f4 ? Maybe 8. g3. Maybe 8. Ne2 or Nh3. I'm not sure. The line I looked at most carefully for black goes 7. Nc5 dxe4+ 8. Kc3. Not 8. Nxe4 Bf5 9. Qf3 (9. Qe1 is no better) Nf6 10. Qxf4 exf4, and now black wins the pinned ♘. Maybe white can get the ♙ on f4, but that's equality at best. |
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| Jan-31-07 | | Themofro: There is an analysis of this game in "king power in chess" i beleive by Edmar Mednis though i am not sure of that. He annotates it from about move 10ish or so on up, and concludes that it is indeed a draw, black has enough material for a draw but not enough for a win he concludes. |
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| Jan-31-07 | | Dr.Lecter: I can never understand this game. I looked at it over and over, and can never see why black plays those moves. Maybe when one day, time machine is invented, I can ask mr. meitner about his strange, but effective attack. |
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Jan-31-07
 | | Sneaky: <IMDONE4: immortal indeed... 7. Qe1! gives white a small advantage> How'd you figure that one out? Put your chess computer on it for 10 seconds? |
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| Jan-31-07 | | positionalgenius: I always enjoy watching this game... |
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| Feb-01-07 | | IMDONE4: <Sneaky: How'd you figure that one out? Put your chess computer on it for 10 seconds?>
Actually no. Its the only other move that makes any sense whatever in that position, and we can quite safely say that keeping the pawn on e4 is quite vital to holding whites position together. With the move, he is able to slow black down alot, and get his own development going by chasing the queen around. Moves like g3, Ne2 and followed by c3 to get the king to safety are coming. I dont claim to see all the different complicated variations, or that white is definitely headed toward a win in such a position, but I believe it is an improvement on Kc3 where the entire line is forced. And move number 9 is the only move other than the questionable 3. Na4?! that can be improved on. |
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Feb-02-07
| | Sneaky: IMDONE4, sorry if my comment sounded snotty, but it's far from clear that 7.Qe1 is good for White, the position is so irrational that I don't believe anybody can make a statement about the position with complete confidence. You may very well be right but it would take a lot of work to demonstrate the truth (or falsehood) of the claim. If this game to to be believed, then it demonstrates that 3.Na4 is a poor move because it allows Black to equalize with the outrageous sacrifices that follow. And I am willing to believe that, although like yourself I am also skeptical. A series of correspondence games starting after the bishop sacrifice might be one way to try to determine the truth of the position. |
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| Feb-02-07 | | arifattar: Yeah. A consultation game between the chessgames members with the position after 3.Na4 should be fun. |
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| Feb-02-07 | | arifattar: In this game M Wind vs T Winckelmann, 1993 White plays 11.Kb5 and wins. |
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| Feb-03-07 | | Atking: The difficulty of this game is that 2 sacrifices are not obviously connected. 3. ...Bxf2+!!? may be correct but with 5. ...Nf6 6.Qf3 (6.d3 Ng4+ 7.Kd2 Nf2 8.Qe1 Qf6 9.Nf3 NxRh1 10.Be2 d5! 11.QxNh1 dxe 12.dxe Nc6 13.c3 Qg6 14.Bd3 f5, Na4 and Bc1 are out play therefore black rook will be soo active Black is a better)6. ...Qe1+ (6. ...d5!?) 7.Qe2 (7.Ne2? d5!) 7. ...Qh4 8.Qf3 and draw. Otherwise 8.Kd3?! d5! 9.g3 dxe+ 10.Kc3 Nd5+ 11.Kb3 Qe7 Black is better 12.a3 Be6 13.c4 b5!! 14.cxNd5 Bxd5+ 15.Kc2 bxa4 16.Qe3 Nc6 17.Bb5 0-0 18.Ne2 Rab8 Or 12.c3 Bd7 13.Qxe4 Nf6 14.Qxb7 Qe6+ and 15. ...Bc6. The second sacrifice is one of the most beautiful of the chess literature. It seems correct and enought for a draw. I have no doubt that the queen sacrifice is the correct and courageous decision on the position. Else as nobody insist on 8.d4! suggested up I will do: 8. ...exd+ (8. ...Nc6 9.Nf3 Bg4 10.Bb5 exd+ 11.Qxd4 BxNf3 12.gxBf3 Qxf3+ 13.Be3 Rooks are connected) 9.Qxd4 Qe1+ 10.Bd2! QxRa1 11.Nf3 Qxa2 (Of course not 11. ...Kf8 12.Qxd5 with a mate in d8 and Bc4 which treats the Queen a1)12.Qxg7 QxNa4 (12. ...Nc6 13.Bb5 Be6 14.Bg5) 13.QxRh8 d4+ 14.Nxd4 Qa5+ 15.Kb3 QxBd2 16.QxNg8+ Ke7 17.Bc4 QxNd4 and now either 18.QxBc8 a5 19.Qxc7+ Nd7 20.Re1+ Kf8 21.Ka2 or 18.Qxf7+ Kd6 (18. ...Kd8? 19.Re1) 19.c3 Qd2 20.Qh5 for Rd1 is clearly better for White. |
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| Feb-04-07 | | IMDONE4: <Sneaky> No problem, alot of people just plug stuff into their Fritz and expect it to be the perfect solution. Has 9.d4!? been discussed? cause I just looked at it and it looks like an interesting alternative to the forced draw. |
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| Jul-31-07 | | Rook in the 7th rank: Queen and Knight advantage.... and it´s DRAW!!! I like that :-) |
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| Sep-10-07 | | mallocks: I know it was ages ago but I was looking at the 7. Qe1 idea in Rybka. Suggested line goes:
7...Nf6 8.g3 Qg4 9.c3 Bf5 10.exf5 Qxf5+ 11.Ke2 Qe4+ 12.Kd1 Qxh1 13.Qxe5+
and things are far more balanced and it's looking (comparatively) more like a typical chess game. 
click for larger view For what it's worth final valuation after 13.Qxe5+ that point has black with a small advantage of 0.28 at 20-ply (13... Kd8 14.Qd4 Qxh2 15.Ne2 Re8 16.d3 Qh5 17.Qf2 Ng4 18.Qd4 Nh2 19.Qxg7 Nxf1 20.Qf6+). I think I prefer the game as it was played, the position at the end of the line above doesn't have quite the same feel to it somehow :) |
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| Jan-26-08 | | littlefermat: I just played though this game--honestly I'm at a total loss for words. Who/why?! would anybody play like this?? |
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| Feb-28-08 | | Abejorral: What a dumb invention of a game |
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Feb-29-08
 | | Eric Schiller: Compare this similar game:
[Event "?"]
[Site "New York"]
[Date "1981"]
[Round ""]
[White "Schiller, Eric"]
[Black "Shipman, Walter"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Eco "B00"]
[Annotator ""]
[Source ""]
1.e4 Nc6 2.Bc4 e5 3.d3 Na5 4.Bxf7+ Kxf7 5.Qh5+ Ke6 6.Qf5+ Kd6
7.d4 Kc6 8.Qxe5 d5 9.exd5+ Kb6 10.Nc3 Qe7 11.Na4+ Kb5 12.Nc3+
Kb6 13.Bf4 Bf5 1/2-1/2 |
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| Feb-29-08 | | Abejorral: I compared them, and i find them both dumb and boring prefabrications. |
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| Jul-19-08 | | dw98: Heidenfeld notes that he suggested 11.Kb5! in Deutsche Schachzeitung 1972 and he goes on analyze 11...a5 and 11...Ne7! 12.c4! as improvements for white in explaining why he left this game out of his collection of best drawn games in "Draw!" He also gives 3...Be7 as the correct way to punish the improper early Na4. And prefers 12.Kc3 to 12.Kc5?. |
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| Jul-19-08 | | dw98: Heidenfeld's analysis is identical to mr.basso's given here earlier. |
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| Jan-05-09 | | WhiteRook48: queen sacrifice to force a draw!! |
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Jan-22-09
 | | FSR: Soltis mentions 11.Kb5 in King Power in Chess, pp. 74-75. He says that Black must still play 11...a5, after which Heidenfeld's suggestion 12.Qe2 is met by 12...Ne6!!, when the threat of 13...Bd7 forces 13.Ka4 Nc5+ 15.Kb5 Ne6 with a draw by repetition. "Therefore, in order to win, White must try other methods. Two promising ones are 12.P-QN4!? (Kastner) and 12.P-B4! (Presley)." Deep analysis, huh? :P I know that Mednis was referring to analysis that was published in Chess Life magazine - although he unfortunately fails to mention that, let alone provide the date so the reader can investigate further. |
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