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| Apr-29-23 | | stone free or die: I always say, you gotta play to your audience.
To tell the truth I'm checked out on your "objections", as you strike me as having a pretty fixed pov in this matter. We may or may not agree on the matter, but it seems you'd like <yiotta> (or rather the "CC instructor" source) to have more leeway than Niemann. It just strikes me as an wholly unbalanced position. And yes, I like posing questions to fully suss out a story - something I learned a long time ago in a journalism class I took. |
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| Apr-29-23 | | SChesshevsky: <stone> We do agree that it is an unbalanced position. Given that Hans admits he cheated at the age of the alleged under discussion incident. And yiotta seems to have little to gain by relaying this story. My only pov on this is, given those facts, it seems the incident is certainly possible. But it's the outright declaring the story as doubtful, fishy, or false that is the unbalance. Which seems to me to give more than equal leeway to Niemann. Which I don't believe an admitted cheater deserves. |
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Apr-29-23
 | | Sally Simpson: Hi SChesshevsky,
What is confusing about my take.
I am not discussing any matter other than the tale about him being banned when he was 12 for doing something with clocks. Hans admitting to cheating online and all the other things you mentioned does not also mean he must have got himself banned for OTB cheating when he was 12 for some kind of clock abuse. It appears others have accepted as fact this new disclosure about Hans because he once admitted to online cheating and they want to flog him. Myself and others are a bit sceptical about this new tale, that is all. I do not think anyone is trying to defend his past misdemeanors, they can't. But nor can anyone point to them and say, without any proof, he must have done this as well. Posting proof first would have been a better way to do it. Then instead of a few bug-eyed vultures circling you would have got a whole flock of them landing here. |
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| Apr-29-23 | | Petrosianic: <SChesshevsky>: <Yeah but he was young. Yeah but it was only online.
Yeah but online cheating is so common.
Yeah but Carlsen cheated too.
Yeah but that was just increment. Not getting moves. I probably missed some others.>
This is a Straw Man Convention. Nobody's saying what you're rebutting. The only thing at issue here is the question of whether the fact that Niemann is known to have cheated online makes him automatically guilty of anything you want to accuse him of. No, it doesn't. |
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| Apr-30-23 | | SChesshevsky: <Sally> <Petrosianic> "does not also mean he must have got himself banned... " "makes him automatically guilty... " Must have? Automatically? Don't think I ever even came close to those absolutes. All I said was the story, given the overall Hans facts, was possible. Do you agree that it's possible? Think I also inferred that if the story turned out to be accurate, it wouldn't come as a complete shock. Do you think that's true? But most of all, the gist of my original post was that, given the Hans facts, dismissing the story outright as doubtful or cock and bull and the way it was dismissed wasn't really fair to the messenger. Who seemed to just pass along something apparently heard from a reliable source. Something that seems possible and plausible. I'm not going to ask you if you agree with that since you already stated the story was doubtful and cock and bull. |
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Apr-30-23
| | Sally Simpson: Hi SChesshevsky,
When Hans was world wide hot news, why did story not surface then. That is why some of us have doubts. People were desperate for proof of OTB cheating because an under 2700 player beat a 2880+ player fair and square in an OTB game (and bragged about it in the after match interview) and the player who lost walked out of the tournament Then was the time to drop this news. Surely more than one person knew about this. There must be a paper trail, a record of it somewhere. And just because someone admitted to cheating online I cannot accept that they maybe guilty of something else, the details of which are unknown. In your words it is <'Something that seems possible and plausible.> What something was it? 'It had something to do with clocks.'
I can neither be surprised or think it plausible if one does not know what sinister OTB crime was committed by Hans when he was 12. As I keep saying , proof of what ever it is would be nice, till then it can only be 'cock and bull' or better still, 'clock and bull.' |
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Apr-30-23
 | | MissScarlett: <SChesshevsky: <MissScarlett> Who ever mentioned computer hacking? That appears YOUR invention. Imaginations can run wild.> Sorry, got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I thought you were suggesting the possibility that Niemann had prior knowledge of Magnus's opening choice. This idea has history: Magnus Carlsen (kibitz #87037) |
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Apr-30-23
 | | perfidious: <Geoff....When Hans was world wide hot news, why did story not surface then. That is why some of us have doubts....> That would certainly have been the time for this to find its way to the forefront. |
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Apr-30-23
| | Sally Simpson: Hi Perfidious,
That is correct.
It was on the BBC 10 o'clock news in the UK and in every paper. And at one time chess.com when they were on let's get Hans hunt, would have paid a fortune for OTB evidence of cheating, or whatever it was - we still do not know. The only reason I can think of, if it's true, is who ever is sitting on it is fed up as a lot of are of this continual Hans bashing and kept it under wraps. The lad is a good chess player, I'd hate to see him leave or be chased out of the game because he did something silly like cheating online on a site that bans 100'sof accounts a week. He came clean and admitted it. Why do some people still have a problem with him. They should let it go. |
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Apr-30-23
| | perfidious: <Geoff>, during this whole cause celebre, I had colleagues and friends asking about it, most of whom had little to no knowledge of chess matters. <....The lad is a good chess player, I'd hate to see him leave or be chased out of the game because he did something silly like cheating online on a site that bans 100'sof accounts a week....> I'll sign that; no reason to make Niemann out to be a pariah on a par with Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot, as has been done in some circles. Niemann has endured his punishment; let him live. |
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Apr-30-23
| | Sally Simpson: Hi Perfidious,
I've just been thinking about something I posted earlier. If I had the goods on Hans I would not reveal it in a site frequented by nutcases, neurotics and nerds (guilty on all 3 counts) I'd use it to blackmail Hans. Perhaps that is what is happening and why we will never know. |
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| Apr-30-23 | | stone free or die: <SChesshevsky> thanks for that even-keeled response. We obviously have different takes on the admission part of the equation, i.e. I distrust the cheaters who haven't admitted their misdeeds more. And there's plenty of 'em out there.
I'm still hopeful that FIDE publishes their Fair Play report sometime soon, now that the WCC is over. . |
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| May-01-23 | | Shangri La: deception
A petty man is eager to make boasts, yet desires that others should believe in him. He enthusiastically engages in deception, yet wants others to have affection for him. He conducts himself like an animal, yet wants others to think well of him. Xunzi
gal>> |
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| May-01-23 | | EvanTheTerrible: Hans will finally get some 2600-2700 level opposition in his next event in Baku, which starts May 4th. |
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| May-01-23 | | Petrosianic: <SChesshevsky>: <Think what's telling here is that Hans, a two time loser in chess cheating terms, gets all the benefit of the doubt. While poor <yiotta> passes along a relevant story that certainly seems possible and immediately gets branded a liar.> Are you saying that Sally called yiotta a liar? Because I know it wasn't me. Or is it maybe possible that nobody did, and you misinterpreted a totally reasonable request to source a claim as a personal attack? It is possible that Hans cheated OTB at some point in his life. It's also possible that Carlsen cheated when he beat Nepo. But if I told you he did, don't you think you'd want more than my say so before you believed it? |
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May-01-23
 | | beatgiant: I took <yiotta> at his word, which is why I posted a list of details we'd like to get from his source. Of course neither we nor <yiotta> have much way of knowing whether the source is correct, unless we learn some new corroborating evidence. Based on what's been posted so far, we have the following details of the alleged incident: Niemann was 12 years old (so in 2015 or 2016), it happened in a club in Los Angeles, it involved an accusation of tinkering with the clock probably to affect the increment in his favor, there was a small cash prize fund, it was USCF rated, and the incident was reported for ratings (I guess that means he forfeited his games). <yiotta> Did I get all that right? Do we know in which club in Los Angeles this supposedly happened? Checking current UCSF affiliates, I found clubs in North Hollywood, Alondra Park, Pasadena, Whittier High School and a few other nearby places. |
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May-01-23
| | MissScarlett: <Based on what's been posted so far, we have the following details of the alleged incident: Niemann was 12 years old (so in 2015 or 2016), it happened in a club in Los Angeles, it involved an accusation of tinkering with the clock probably to affect the increment in his favor, there was a small cash prize fund, it was USCF rated, and the incident was reported for ratings (I guess that means he forfeited his games). > <yiotta> twice specified the <Los Angeles Chess Club> - first, he said <an employee of the former Los Angeles Chess Club> but I think what he meant was a <former teacher at the club>. <it was USCF rated, and the incident was reported for ratings> <Probably> reported for ratings. If this alleged report concerned only ratings, and Niemann's games were simply forfeited, the USCF would have no specific record that he had been accused of cheating. |
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May-01-23
| | Sally Simpson: As I keep saying, it's the kind of thing that should have been posted with a source first and then the details. Without any facts it must be viewed as codswallop. I get the feeling if this was on any other player then more people would think the same as some of us here, but because it's v Hans Niemann apparently it must be true. (And if it was v any other player then nobody would give a toss.) Good Luck in finding yet another nail in which to crucify this player for something he may have or may not have done when he was 12. (good grief) |
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May-01-23
| | beatgiant: <MissScarlett> I cannot find any currently existing USCF affiliate named <Los Angeles Chess Club>, but as I pointed out, there are quite a few in the local area around Los Angeles, hence this question. The affiliate directory is here: https://new.uschess.org/club-search... Once we identify the club, this would make it a lot easier to look up tournaments the club has run during the given time period. For example, we could find the history of events run by the Pasadena club here:
http://www.uschess.org/msa/AffDtlTn... |
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May-01-23
| | MissScarlett: <The Los Angeles Chess Club (LACC) is one of the ten most active chess clubs in the country and hosting the strongest weekly tournament (LA Masters). Operating on the premises of the Barrington Bridge Club, LACC conducts weekly lectures and tournaments. See our club schedules. Whether you are a beginner or planning to take your game to the next level, you are welcomed to: Stop by the club for a free consultation or Take a look at our LACC Online Brochure and attend a complementary group class and join the club; should you decide if it is the right one for you (No RSVP) or Take a look at our LACC Private Lessons Brochure and decide on the right package for you. 11514 Santa Monica Blvd Los Angeles, CA, 90025lachessclub.comContact Email: mick@lachessclub.com> https://www.chess.com/club/los-ange... This page lists the <LACC> as a previous resident of <11514 Santa Monica Blvd>: https://homemetry.com/house/11514+S... Contrary to my assumption, <yiotta>'s description of the <former Los Angeles Chess Club> may have been right on the mark. |
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May-01-23
| | MissScarlett: Back issues of <Chess Life> will surely bring more joy: https://new.uschess.org/chess-life-... I leave it in your hands. I feel more at home in Victorian Britain than in 21st century America. |
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May-01-23
| | Sally Simpson: The player in question is still alive, if it is so important to some of you why not ask him. I'll ask him.
Dear Hans,
What did you do when you were 12 with a chess clock because some people over at chessgames.com are wetting themselves in anticipation and speculation. Love and Kisses, GTC.
PS: drop the law suit, the only winners will be lawyers. |
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May-01-23
 | | OhioChessFan: <The Los Angeles Chess Club (LACC) is one of the ten most active chess clubs in the country and hosting the strongest weekly tournament (LA Masters). Operating on the premises of the Barrington Bridge Club, LACC conducts weekly lectures and tournaments. See our club schedules. Whether you are a beginner or planning to take your game to the next level, you are welcomed to: Stop by the club for a free consultation or Take a look at our LACC Online Brochure and attend a complementary group class and join the club; should you decide if it is the right one for you (No RSVP) or Take a look at our LACC Private Lessons Brochure and decide on the right package for you. 11514 Santa Monica Blvd Los Angeles, CA, 90025lachessclub.comContact Email: mick@lachessclub.com> My eyes are bleeding after reading that. I quit counting grammatical errors after five. |
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May-01-23
| | MissScarlett: <The player in question is still alive, if it is so important to some of you why not ask him.> Hans is a VIP now, so travels in rarefied circles: <Niemann made a "comeback" in Menorca Open, with Aftenposten reporting that he signed up only 48 [hours] before the start, then arrived in a limo. Inbetween smoking cigars on the balcony, he played some brilliant chess to score a plus result.> https://twitter.com/TarjeiJS/status... Next time my limo pulls up alongside another at traffic lights, I'll tap on the tinted window and see if its him. |
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May-01-23
| | beatgiant: <Sally Simpson> <crucify this player for something he may have or may not have done when he was 12>> The point is, if true, it would show the incompleteness in his statement last year coming clean about his cheating history, and would be the first known case of cheating over-the-board. Those would affect people's assessments of his current credibility. |
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