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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 19 OF 22 ·
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| Sep-21-10 | | cotoi: Can someone please post examples of human players who played with engine-like precision for entire games? Please, this site has a HUGE database and there are many CC games, can you find such examples? I have the impression that such coincidences only appear in online chess. |
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| Sep-21-10 | | bartonlaos: Jim Bartle, Which game?
cotoi, Still waiting on the Firebird results for her game against <wh47>. My crude analysis is equivalent for both players. |
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| Sep-21-10 | | cotoi: bartonlaos, I already analyzed that game and the results were posted above. It seems that you didn't even bother to read. |
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| Sep-21-10 | | bartonlaos: No cotoi. I'm waiting for <wh47>'s results. |
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| Sep-21-10 | | Fezzik: I already know. I played wh47. He's a pure bot. |
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| Sep-22-10 | | chesswizz1964: So Yelena beat a computer helped player!
I know she better than Rybka.
Yelena no lose in 155 games. Maybe a lot were cheating program players.
Yelena is one of best correspondence chess players game has ever seen.
I am glad she decided to leave chess.com. |
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| Sep-22-10 | | chesswizz1964: Has anyone found any mistake from Yelena in any of the 20 games? |
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| Sep-22-10 | | Jim Bartle: I was referring to the Pirc at "Burning European Pawns." It just seems like a good game by a good player to me. |
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| Sep-22-10 | | StarJock: I have known Yelena for several years and have been associated with Chess.com for several years. I'm familiar with their continuing crusade to throw cheaters off their site by using some technique that they refuse to reveal. If Yelena says she didn't cheat, then: I BELIEVE YELENA. |
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| Sep-22-10 | | bullyboy12708: StarJock just check her games with any decent bot |
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| Sep-22-10 | | cotoi: I never said that Yelena cheated and nobody can ever know that! All I'm saying is that, from her games, it appears that she plays more computer-like than any player in the history. It is quite a mystery though why she changes her style when playing OTB. |
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| Sep-22-10 | | bullyboy12708: Cotoi look at what you are saying there. You are saying that she plays computer like in online chess games yet that changes when OTB. You know what you're saying you just find it hard to admit! Anyone with a shred of common sense can see it |
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| Sep-22-10 | | bartonlaos: cotoi -
The fidelity is higher with opponents whose ratings are hundreds of points lower. That's the whole mistake that you've been making. Here's her latest OTB againts a much lower-rated opponent. It fits the criteria. Analyze it (starting at move 11): [Event "Chess Olympiad (Women)"]
[Site "Khanty-Mansiysk RUS"]
[Date "2010.09.21"]
[EventDate "2010.09.21"]
[Round "1"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Choe Tammy Segarra"]
[Black "Yelena Dembo"]
[ECO "E94"]
[WhiteElo "2014"]
[BlackElo "2452"]
[PlyCount "76"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. O-O e5 8. d5
Nh5 9. Ne1 Nf4 10. Be3 Nxe2+ 11. Qxe2 f5 12. f3 f4 13. Bf2 g5 14. Nd3 Nf6 15.
c5 g4 16. Bh4 Qe8 17. Bxf6 gxf3 18. Qxf3 Rxf6 19. cxd6 cxd6 20. Rac1 Rg6 21.
Nf2 Bf6 22. Ne2 h5 23. h3 Rg7 24. Rc3 Bd8 25. Rfc1 Bd7 26. Kh2 h4 27. R1c2 Ba5
28. b4 Bxb4 29. Rc7 Bc5 30. Ng4 Bxg4 31. Rxg7+ Kxg7 32. Qxg4+ Qg6 33. Qxh4 Kf7
34. Nxf4 exf4 35. Qxf4+ Kg7 36. Rc1 Rf8 37. Qh4 Rf7 38. e5 Bf2 0-1 |
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| Sep-22-10 | | cotoi: bullyboy12708: What about analysing this game then?
[Event "10th Chess.com Tournament (2201+) - Round 1"] [Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2010.03.01"]
[White "YelenaDembo"]
[Black "saksipotku"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2723"]
[BlackElo "2371"]
[TimeControl "1 in 3 days"]
[Termination "YelenaDembo won by resignation"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 d5 5.dxe5 Be7 6.O-O O-O 7.Nc3 Nxc3 8.bxc3 Nc6 9.Re1 f6 10.Rb1 fxe5 11.Nxe5 Nxe5 12.Rxe5 Bd6 13.Qh5 h6 14.Re1 Qf6 15.Qxd5+ Kh8 16.Be3 Qe5 17.Qxe5 Bxe5 18.Bc5 Bd6 19.Bxd6 cxd6 20.Re7 Rb8 21.h3 Rd8 22.Rb4 Bd7 23.Rd4 Bc6 24.Rg4 Rg8 25.Rg6 Rge8 26.Rc7 Rbc8 27.Rcxg7 Rg8 28.Rxg8+ Rxg8 29.Rxh6+ Kg7 30.Rxd6 Re8 31.f4 Re1+ 32.Kf2 Rd1 33.g4 Rh1 34.Rxc6 bxc6 35.Bf1 Rh2+ 36.Bg2 1-0 Firebird, multiline mode (3), depth 18.
According to chesslive.de, theory ends at move 8...Nc6. Thus, there are 28 moves to analyze. - outside top 3 choices: one move (21)
- third choice: one move (23)
- second choice: 4 moves (14, 22, 26, 30)
- first choice: the remaining 22 moves.
In percentages we have:
- first choice: 78.6%
- top 2 choices: 92.8%
- top 3 choices: 96.4%
Another almost perfect game by Yelena! Well done!! |
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| Sep-22-10 | | cotoi: quoting Bartonlaos
"The fidelity is higher with opponents whose ratings are hundreds of points lower. That's the whole mistake that you've been making. Here's her latest OTB againts a much lower-rated opponent. It fits the criteria. Analyze it (starting at move 11): [Event "Chess Olympiad (Women)"]
[Site "Khanty-Mansiysk RUS"]
[Date "2010.09.21"]
[EventDate "2010.09.21"]
[Round "1"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Choe Tammy Segarra"]
[Black "Yelena Dembo"]
[ECO "E94"]
[WhiteElo "2014"]
[BlackElo "2452"]
[PlyCount "76"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 Nbd7 7. O-O e5 8. d5 Nh5 9. Ne1 Nf4 10. Be3 Nxe2+ 11. Qxe2 f5 12. f3 f4 13. Bf2 g5 14. Nd3 Nf6 15. c5 g4 16. Bh4 Qe8 17. Bxf6 gxf3 18. Qxf3 Rxf6 19. cxd6 cxd6 20. Rac1 Rg6 21. Nf2 Bf6 22. Ne2 h5 23. h3 Rg7 24. Rc3 Bd8 25. Rfc1 Bd7 26. Kh2 h4 27. R1c2 Ba5 28. b4 Bxb4 29. Rc7 Bc5 30. Ng4 Bxg4 31. Rxg7+ Kxg7 32. Qxg4+ Qg6 33. Qxh4 Kf7 34. Nxf4 exf4 35. Qxf4+ Kg7 36. Rc1 Rf8 37. Qh4 Rf7 38. e5 Bf2 0-1" - outside top 3 choices: 8 moves (12, 13, 21, 22, 24, 26, 29, 37
- third choice: 2 moves (20, 27)
- second choice: 5 moves (11, 15, 18, 33, 36)
- first choice: the remaining 13 moves.
In percentages we have:
- first choice: 46.4%
- top 2 choices: 64.3%
- top 3 choices: 71.5%
That's an absolutely awful game played by Yelena compared to the perfect games she can play! Her matchup rate is well below that achieved by let's say Capablanca or Alehin. |
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| Sep-22-10 | | whiteshark: <cotoi> Yelena's game against saksipotku is really easy to follow. There are only simple tactic (=threats+grabbing+check) and strategy (technical) moves in it. Nothing you can't spot within seconds. It's just solid technique. <9.Re1> last book move.
<10.Rb1> bring ♖ on open file, prevent ♗c8 development
<11.Nxe5> recapture; forced move
<12.Rxe5> recapture; forced move
<13.Qh5> threat Qxh7+
<14.Re1> retreat to safe square
<15.Qxd5+> grab the pawn with check
<16.Be3> development, connecting rooks
This is a technical won position - White can simply exchange pieces to bring the game home. <17.Qxe5> trade-off <18.Bc5 > double threat Rf8/Be5
etc...
There is no move that can not explained this simple way. 10 exchanged/recaptures and 2 responses to a check (12/27) forced moves. I have no doubt that almost all IM/GMs would have won it this way. If such technical games leads to such untenable calumniations it's better to quit such ugly page the sooner the better. |
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| Sep-22-10 | | SugarDom: Undefeated in 155 internet games. The only conclusion is the YD suffers from dyslexia when playing on a real chessboard... |
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| Sep-22-10 | | cotoi: Whiteshark:
1. I agree with your observations!
2. There is nothing defamatory in my posts. Yelena apparently plays an engine-like perfect chess online and a different, much weaker chess OTB. |
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| Sep-22-10 | | cgms900: "If Yelena says she didn't cheat, then: I BELIEVE YELENA." Has Dembo ever actually said that she didn't cheat? That's the curious thing here. She's yet to come out and directly say that she in no way cheated. Sure, she threatened legal action, but this was simply to have a label removed; basically to cover the situation up. In her writings here (perhaps she has writings elsewhere addressing this I'm not aware of?), all she's done is passively imply that she didn't cheat. Just a little strange. You'd think that a player who was supposedly innocent would be rather outraged and quite vocal about the travesty of justice that has occured. Dembo's response? "Anyway, life continues!" |
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| Sep-22-10 | | bartonlaos: <cgms900> Surprisingly, Chess.com is not a big deal in Yelena's life. She is the number one Greek player in the Olympiad. Erik the site owner, an apparent master at conflict-resolution, should have realized this. I don't know why he couldn't wait for the closing ceremonies before giving her the boot. I hope Chess.com will treat their other Titled players with a little more respect if they meet with similar circumstances. <cotoi> For Yelena's game, the opening novelty is 14...Nf6. This gives 25 total moves for your analysis. I also received similar Firebird results at depth 18, but moves 15, 20, and 33 were top choices. Must be system differences. <SugarDom> Undefeated is not impossible for a titled player, just see <dpruess>'s record and someone who is undefeated in 249 wins: http://www.chess.com/echess/profile... |
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| Sep-22-10 | | cotoi: <bartonlaos> For the moves you mention Firebird gives equal evaluations for two candidate moves or very small differences (like  0.03). Anyway, making some second or third choices the top choice doesn't change too much the overall score. In particular, the top-3 percentage remains the same, namely 71.5%. Way below the usual percentage Yelena achieved in the 3 games I analyzed (>95%). |
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| Sep-22-10 | | Zygalski: bartonlaos
You seem to not be able to find David Pruess' chess.com profile.
It really shouldn't be too taxing for you!
http://www.chess.com/members/view/d... |
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| Sep-23-10 | | bartonlaos: <Zygalski> I just kept mistyping his name <dpreuss> and gave up with it. Thanks for that, though. On the analysis. I think, regardless of whether she did or didn't do a thing, that it is wrong for <Chess.com> to distribute results from such analysis for one person, while they keep the others confidential. Now with the Olympiad going on, they've got time to distribute this information while she's away playing for the pride of her country. Free advertising with no legal resistance allowing players to talk about how fierce is <Chess.com> at kicking suspected cheaters off their site. Of course, this strategy could backfire. Or maybe Yelena will just brush it off and move on, knowing she still has the full support of the <CG> users, minus a few, recent <Chess.com> transplants. <cotoi> Yes, similar results, but just a bit different with the later starting point. The thing is that <Chess.com> doesn't need any of the games. All they need is a bot. One game of their own design will decide it for them, maybe even 1 line. So even though the Top-3 Method doesn't tell them anything about the player's intentions, it also doesn't have to be used to boot the suspect. In any case, what Yelena did or didn't do while toying around with <Chess.com> or <Gameknot.com> is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. As the 40th best female player in the world, her OTB play is outstanding. So that's really all that matters. |
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| Sep-23-10 | | bartonlaos: <cotoi>
In reviewing Yelena's OTB game, my results have moves 15, 20, and 33 considered as top choice, and as you have stated, the score difference is just <0.03 pawns> suggesting equivalence. Since her novelty is 14...Nf6 we have a denominator of 25 moves and the results are: - outside choices: 6 moves (21, 22, 24, 26, 29, 37)
- third choice: 1 moves (27)
- second choice: 2 moves (18, 36)
- first choice: the remaining 16 moves.
In percentages:
- top 1 choice 16/25 : 64% . . . (13/25: 52%)
- top 2 choices 18/25: 72%
- top 3 choices 19/25: 76%
With OTB there are moves that play against the psyche, such as pressing, waiting, and other kinds of mental-games that don't transfer well in correspondence. From my untrained eye, 22.h5, 26.h4 and the 29.Bc5 interference serve as examples. Other moves suggest time considerations when the game is already won, such as 37.Rf7. These are just some of the reasons why OTB results don't transfer well to CC play, and why the Top-3 method doesn't really say anything about the Chess that's involved. |
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| Sep-23-10 | | cotoi: The top-3 methodology can only say how engine-like someone plays. So we have now two independent analysis of a recent game of Yelena; we thought the game would be nearly perfect. But, as we can see, there is no way we can move the top 3 choices from 76% to 95% and above, which was the threshold Yelena had in the CC games we saw. |
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